No Bill of Rights for you!

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#3
I really didn't want to believe it. Just figured it was all hype. But man, they really are coming out and doing it. Not even trying to hide it anymore.
 

Cloaked

Iron Fisted Ruler
Staff member
#4
If you knew where to look you could see the people that were pushing for it weren't trying to hide it at all.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#6
A system of laws and rules only work in a society where everyone is more or less desiring a decent world to live in. Even the bank robber can have a family and desire a better life for his children so while he may take a risk to obtain money any way he can in one element of his life, he at the same time knows what he is doing is wrong, we can use trials and set punishments to try and teach these people to not break the rules of society and give them sometimes many chances at redemption and hope they will become good and useful members of society.


But what do you do with those who want nothing more than to destroy?

Even the serial rapist Cloaked mentioned in another thread, do we just keep watching someone like that do their thing over and over knowing in our hearts he will keep doing his horrible thing and feel powerless to do anything about it?

What do we do with those who want nothing more than to rip our society down? What do we do with those who use our system against us?


Look at it this way, we give out speeding tickets not for harm caused but because their behavior "has the potential" to cause great harm. What has a greater potential harm than being involved with terrorists? If you are involved with terrorists then you want to kill every man, woman and child in America so who in America offers us a larger potential harm than them? 9/11 eliminated any doubt in any mind what a terrorist wants to do so anyone who is still flirting with these groups has made their intent clear.



I look at it like this, a terrorist wants to completely destroy the system we have, so why should they get the protections of a system they wanted to destroy? War has been declared by them against all of America, so treat them like war criminals if that is what they want. Remember, it was their choice to be involved with terrorists, all we are discussing now what to do with them after thay made their choice.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#8
What if they turn out to be innocent?
We can play the what if game all day. What if they are truly involved with terrorists and blow up thousands of kids at a school because we were too timid to act?


Look, the biggest problem with most people looking at things like this is you see it as yourself with all the time in the world to try and nitpick any tiny detail as a "possible" problem but you have to remember how this will be used. How does someone get noticed for these kinds of attentions in the first place hugo? Going to certain websites? Attenting meetings with known terrorists? Traveling to known terrorist training locations? Seen more than once traveling in these circles? Picked up talking to other known terrorists on the phone on a regular basis?


You have to remember that before this new system can even be used there must be something that caused the lazy Government workers to notice you in the first place. These guys are not just running around the local mall and grabbing people hugo, there is something in the behaviors of people that draws the eye of the government to them first. And don't forget that the first priority is not to just snatch them off the street because they want to know everyone that is involved with them so most of the time unless there is an immediate threat they will follow these people for years trying to build a bigger database of names to keep track of and hopefully get to money sources or decision makers in these groups.


Before 9/11 I would say that some people involved with the terrorists were just too nieve and stupid to truly understand the harm they were involved in, but in a post 9/11 world nobody can claim ignorance, if they are still offering support to these groups they are a National Threat and in my opinion have declared war on America.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#9
TJ, they don't seek to "destroy our system" the way I think you see it. Everything they've done to us is the effect of blowback, which essentially means they're pissed off that we've been over there screwing with their country for years. Hell, we funded the Mujaheddin and gave them weapons...and they then turned into Al Queda, which is a terrorist group that hates the American government for its interference.

Also, there's nothing about the bill that says "We need proof you're doing anything terrorist-y." You could just be of Arab descent and they can say "Haha, prison for you!" Which is the problem. You're advocating sacrificing fundamental rights (being tried and found guilty) for security, and it's a terrible way to do things. Where does it stop when you give the government power to do whatever it wants in the name of "stopping terrorism"? They could determine that you might be a terrorist in hiding, or maybe not, but still say "Oh, well, there's a possibility...eh, throw him in Gitmo, we'll deal with him later."
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#10
TJ, they don't seek to "destroy our system" the way I think you see it. Everything they've done to us is the effect of blowback, which essentially means they're pissed off that we've been over there screwing with their country for years. Hell, we funded the Mujaheddin and gave them weapons...and they then turned into Al Queda, which is a terrorist group that hates the American government for its interference.
Blowback? You mean when America stepped in and saved Afganistan from the Russians? Without America's interference Afganistan would now be the property of Russia so any claim of blowback is completely stupid.

You know where people like you get the idea that this is blowback? From the terrorists themselves. They put out videos and do interviews that the Liberal media splashes all over the place and the weak minded populace gobble it up like candy because you guys want to believe that terrorists are not so bad, that there is a good reason they intentionally target non-military targets like little children. You just can't accept the fact that some people and groups are just that twisted that they will use any excuse to do ugly things.

But tell me something Joker. Why is it you belive they are telling you the truth? Why is it a person willing to blow up a school bus filled with children tells you the reason he does this is because of American foreign policy and you think hey, this guy is someone I can trust to tell the truth?

Also, there's nothing about the bill that says "We need proof you're doing anything terrorist-y." You could just be of Arab descent and they can say "Haha, prison for you!" Which is the problem. You're advocating sacrificing fundamental rights (being tried and found guilty) for security, and it's a terrible way to do things. Where does it stop when you give the government power to do whatever it wants in the name of "stopping terrorism"? They could determine that you might be a terrorist in hiding, or maybe not, but still say "Oh, well, there's a possibility...eh, throw him in Gitmo, we'll deal with him later."
Really?

You believe our agents have nothing better to do than just grab any person they want (without cause) and toss them into a cell for giggles? You have no real concept of how the real world works do you? These agents do not have the time to waste on nobodys joker.


Go back and read what I already posted, use a little common sense and understand that there is no way you work your way up to the decision makers of terrorist activities by tossing people in jail at the first sign they may have talked to a terrorist group. What happens is you watch this person to see who else they may talk to, you see who they call, you watch their bank transactions to see who is sending them money or who they are sending money to. This law has nothing to do with any of that, this is just normal investigation methods that happen already today and will continue to happen with or without this new tool. All of this can take several years to unfold.

The only thing this bill will do is say once the investigation is done and we know all we can know about this person, what do we do with them now? What tools do we have to deal with this terrorist. Right now we have to give a terrorist all the rights and freedoms a normal American has but their crimes are an act of war. Their actions are not to hurt a single person, their actions are designed to harm America as a whole and this is the fundemental difference in why they should be handled in a completely different way.
 

eddo

I don't like you.
#11
Why is it you belive they are telling you the truth? Why is it a person willing to blow up a school bus filled with children tells you the reason he does this is because of American foreign policy and you think hey, this guy is someone I can trust to tell the truth?
a question I have often pondered.
 

hugo

Big Time BS'er
#12
The fact is us white Christians got little to worry about. Let us not worry about the possible abuse of innocent dark people who are going to hell anyways.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#13
The fact is us white Christians got little to worry about. Let us not worry about the possible abuse of innocent dark people who are going to hell anyways.
If all you are looking for is the negative, you will always find it, even if it is not there.


Hugo and those like him love to play the race card when they have no actual way to debate a real issue, they believe they can simply silence opposition because nobody wants to be considered a racist right? In many ways the liberals win arguement after arguement this way, and I for one have become indifferent by them crying 'wolf' over and over, and over again. To me, once they call me a racist, they have admitted their defeat at the hands of logic and must turn to crap like that to try and win because there is no other way they can.


In reality, this measure will change nothing at the start of any investigation into a possible terrorist, unless there is immediate danger of an attack no suspect will ever be locked up because they want all his/her friends too, and the second they are locked up, all the terrorist friends go away. This is logic, nobody with a shread of logical thought could ever assume people will be just tossed into a cell because of their race, there just simply is no time or room for that kind of thing to ever happen.


Hugo, the people who will be doing these jobs are just like you, put yourself into that job and ask yourself a question, you are trying to stop terrorist attacks, you are trying to save lives, how does tossing a complete innocent with dark skin help that goal? Why do you assume everyone involved in these investigations are going to ignore their job? Would you? Is that way you assume racist intent because you are a racist and believe everyone else will do what you would do?
 

hugo

Big Time BS'er
#14
You have more trust in government officials than I do. The reason we have a Bill of Rights is because our founding fathers greatly distrusted government. We can be just as safe from terrorists with current laws without infringing on the civil liberties gauranteed in the Constitution.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#15
You have more trust in government officials than I do. The reason we have a Bill of Rights is because our founding fathers greatly distrusted government. We can be just as safe from terrorists with current laws without infringing on the civil liberties gauranteed in the Constitution.
I have trust in how the real world works and do not need to create monsters under the bed. Protecting America from those waging war on it IS part of the duty of our Government. If the Government cannot wage war back, we lose. In my opinion, once you have taken arms (or helped to take arms) up against your Country, you are no longer protected by it's laws. Did the southern States get normal civil liberties from the Government when they attempted to seperate or were they treated under different rules? Rules of war?


Many people with suspected terrorist ties are let go because we know the limits of the criminal courts or because they are a small fish and we want a big fish and showing our hands to bring the small fish to trial will scare away the big fish. Treating terrorists like a normal every day criminal does not help the larger problem in the slightest, the rules were made for you and me and the normal issues we have with each other, it was not designed for an entrenched war inside our own borders.


The terrorists are not just getting mad and killing their neighbor or girlfriend, they are trying to destroy America and if possible kill us all, now it is unlikely they will kill us all but an event like 9/11 or even a lot bigger is very possible and the rules right now are stacked in their favor.


Anyway, I see you dodged my questions hugo, and you used the race card, you attack conservatives and you want to protect terrorists, you really are a Liberal, lol.



The reality is, this new tool only kicks in "after" all the other established investigation methods are already in place, this is what you do with people already proven to be involved with terrorists, this is not something to take the place of real investigations as Hugo tries to claim. Just a small measure of reality and logic tells us there is no possible way people will be blindly locked away using this new tool. If nothing else we can count on the normal lazy mentality of Government workers, they will not do what they do not have to do. While there may be no need for normal trials there will be a huge requirement for internal paperwork dealing with each suspected terrorist, and what Government official would ever saddle himself with a mountain of paperwork and constant followup just to put a 'dark skin' in a cell without reason?
 

hugo

Big Time BS'er
#17
Why do we have a second amendment?
Let me answer that one, hugo.

No, it is not to protect our right to hunt.

No, it is not to protect our right to defend ourselves from robbers, thieves and rapists.

No, it is not to protect our right to target shoot.

The reason for the second amendment is to allow us to protect ourselves from a tyrannical government.

What people, conservative and liberal alike, who undermine the Bill of Rights have in common is faith in big government.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#18
The bill of rights do not protect those who wage war against us.

You are so Liberal you can't see where there is a difference, you are just like Obama wanting to bring the Guitmo prisoners to American soil and try them in civilian courts. You can't bring yourself to admit we are at war and that the people attacking us do not respect American laws and values. If an American points a gun at the President he is gunned down on the spot, no trial, no hearing, no chance at freedom, he is dead. What makes the lives of the people who died on 9/11 less valuable? What makes the lives of those the terrorists desire to kill next less valuable?


I asked you about the civil war for a reason hugo, when faced with war we have to make hard decisions. Do you think only southern people holding guns were the only people attacked or hurt by the North? Did we respect their rights? Do you think we should have let the South break off so we could cling to a claim of virtue at not violating some American's rights? What about the rights of the Americans on those planes on 9/11? Why do people like you worry about possibly violating the rights of a terrorist but don't even blink an eye for those the terrorists kill?


Is it time to call me a racist again hugo? Better consult the Liberal playbook, lol.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#19
Blowback? You mean when America stepped in and saved Afganistan from the Russians? Without America's interference Afganistan would now be the property of Russia so any claim of blowback is completely stupid.
Except we gave weapons to the Mujaheddin. So we furnished our enemies with weapons. But you're quite ignorant if you believe that was the start of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d'état

Our interference in the Middle East has been going on for DECADES. That coup led to the Iranian Hostage Crisis in '79. We PAID people to oust the Shah in Iran, and that pissed them the hell off.


You know where people like you get the idea that this is blowback? From the terrorists themselves. They put out videos and do interviews that the Liberal media splashes all over the place and the weak minded populace gobble it up like candy because you guys want to believe that terrorists are not so bad, that there is a good reason they intentionally target non-military targets like little children. You just can't accept the fact that some people and groups are just that twisted that they will use any excuse to do ugly things.
Wow. What's amazing is really how ignorant you are. You can't POSSIBLY fathom that they're pissed at us for something WE did. You think they hate us for our freedoms. You're being dense, TJ. They hate us because we keep doing shit in the Middle East. We are causing our own damn problems.

But tell me something Joker. Why is it you belive they are telling you the truth? Why is it a person willing to blow up a school bus filled with children tells you the reason he does this is because of American foreign policy and you think hey, this guy is someone I can trust to tell the truth?
Why would he lie about why he did it? That wouldn't do anything for him. If I'm pissed off at the govt., then go blow up a courthouse saying that I hate cheeseburgers, would that get my message across? No, it wouldn't. So them hating our interference makes sense, since they kind of say that.

Really?

You believe our agents have nothing better to do than just grab any person they want (without cause) and toss them into a cell for giggles? You have no real concept of how the real world works do you? These agents do not have the time to waste on nobodys joker.
That's not the point. The fact that they CAN should be what's concerning, not whether the feel the need to do it or not.

Go back and read what I already posted, use a little common sense and understand that there is no way you work your way up to the decision makers of terrorist activities by tossing people in jail at the first sign they may have talked to a terrorist group. What happens is you watch this person to see who else they may talk to, you see who they call, you watch their bank transactions to see who is sending them money or who they are sending money to. This law has nothing to do with any of that, this is just normal investigation methods that happen already today and will continue to happen with or without this new tool. All of this can take several years to unfold.
Again, doesn't matter. Just because that's what they use it for now doesn't mean that's what it'll be used for in the future. If they decide to start jailing anybody who could POSSIBLY be a terrorist (think Communism scare), they could do just that.

The only thing this bill will do is say once the investigation is done and we know all we can know about this person, what do we do with them now? What tools do we have to deal with this terrorist. Right now we have to give a terrorist all the rights and freedoms a normal American has but their crimes are an act of war. Their actions are not to hurt a single person, their actions are designed to harm America as a whole and this is the fundemental difference in why they should be handled in a completely different way.
Except we don't give them "rights" or "freedoms" because we don't treat them as prisoners of war, hence why we're ok with waterboarding (hint: You can't torture P.O.W.s). You're just the kind of person who will let them infringe on our rights because it's against TERRORISM(SO SCARY!)! Then when they turn around and use them against normal citizens (because the govt. has never done anything against its own people, right?), you'll say "oh, well, I had no clue it would turn around on me." For someone so conservative, you seem to be strangely OK with govt. overreach.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#20
Also, it has nothing to do with "not wanting to believe the terrorists are bad". It's because, unlike you, I'd like to understand the context behind what's happening, instead of blindly believing whatever the government tells me. Speaking of "weak-minded populace", you apparently can't think for your damn self.