No Bill of Rights for you!

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#21
The bill of rights do not protect those who wage war against us.
I really have to respond to your mind-boggling idiocy. 1. There is no War on Terror. Al-Queda, the group that plotted 9/11, has no funding and no leaders. This is not liberal spin, this is the truth. We have pretty much nothing to worry about from them.

You are so Liberal you can't see where there is a difference, you are just like Obama wanting to bring the Guitmo prisoners to American soil and try them in civilian courts. You can't bring yourself to admit we are at war and that the people attacking us do not respect American laws and values. If an American points a gun at the President he is gunned down on the spot, no trial, no hearing, no chance at freedom, he is dead. What makes the lives of the people who died on 9/11 less valuable? What makes the lives of those the terrorists desire to kill next less valuable?
So insisting that there's a trial so proof can be brought against people is bad? Really? Even if some are actual American citizens? Maybe there's a reason you're not in charge, TJ. We have trials for serial killers, why not have trials for alleged terrorists, instead of locking them up indefinitely? After the trial, we can lock them up, and nobody can say we did anything wrong, because we gave them a trial. Hell, even the Nazis were tried after the war, and they were far, far worse then a bunch of poverty-level foreigners.

I asked you about the civil war for a reason hugo, when faced with war we have to make hard decisions. Do you think only southern people holding guns were the only people attacked or hurt by the North? Did we respect their rights? Do you think we should have let the South break off so we could cling to a claim of virtue at not violating some American's rights? What about the rights of the Americans on those planes on 9/11? Why do people like you worry about possibly violating the rights of a terrorist but don't even blink an eye for those the terrorists kill?
Because most of the time, those people they "arrest" for being terrorists haven't killed anybody. That's kind of a big issue. Also, again: we are NOT at war with ANYBODY. But presidents forever and for always will say we are so they can take away our freedoms, and geniuses like you will just let them because you're easily convinced by scare tactics.
 

hugo

Big Time BS'er
#22
The disrespect of our Constitution from the left and right alike saddens me. We are now a nation that just has to pray the nine oligarchs in black do not put to heavy a yoke on us.
 

hugo

Big Time BS'er
#23
"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution ... or have failed their purpose ... or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is 'needed' before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should be attacked for neglecting my constituents' 'interests,' I shall reply that I was informed that their main interest is liberty, and in that cause I am doing the very best I can."

Barry Goldwater, a conservative before conservatives started favoring big government and massive deficits.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#24
Except we gave weapons to the Mujaheddin. So we furnished our enemies with weapons. But you're quite ignorant if you believe that was the start of it.
So America being the only reason Afganistan is not now Russian property means nothing to you right? You keep ignoring that they kill children on purpose, you can't honestly believe that people who intentionally target children think rationally.

Wow. What's amazing is really how ignorant you are. You can't POSSIBLY fathom that they're pissed at us for something WE did. You think they hate us for our freedoms. You're being dense, TJ. They hate us because we keep doing shit in the Middle East. We are causing our own damn problems.
And you can't possibly believe a person capable of killing an innocent child is a rational human being. Primarily the people who do these attacks are those without hope for the future, no jobs, no life, and a fanatical belief that by killing themselves in a "holy war" will offer them a rich reward in the next life. They have nothing to live for and everything to die for. The few people pushing their buttons are simply evil men wallowing in the power to end life on both sides at their whim. Look at history, lots of people love to kill for the feeling of power Joker, these terrorists are not the first.

Why would he lie about why he did it? That wouldn't do anything for him. If I'm pissed off at the govt., then go blow up a courthouse saying that I hate cheeseburgers, would that get my message across? No, it wouldn't. So them hating our interference makes sense, since they kind of say that.
You really are not capable of answering that question yourself?

Ted Bundy getting close to death did a television interview where he spent most of his time blaming porn for his actions. Was he telling the truth or trying to shift at least some blame for his actions onto someone else? Sick people still know they are sick most of the time and will actively do everything in their power to play public opinion in their favor. Like when they put artillery in houseing developments then use the media to say how bad the other people are for bombing a housing area.

But you can't even consider the idea that a terrorist could lie right?

That's not the point. The fact that they CAN should be what's concerning, not whether the feel the need to do it or not.
A cop "CAN" just pull out his gun and kill you if they want Joker, all they have to do is get their story straight and with you dead, difficult to prove he did anything wrong. Using existing laws someone wanting to be a "bad cop" can already do pretty much what they want to do to you. This law will not change that because it has nothing to do with the front end of the investigation, it is what comes at the end.


Because there is so much attention imposed once someone is tagged as a terrorist threat, it is not reasonable to believe anyone would put themselves under that kind of pressure without good reason Joker. Don't forget that their name goes on the confinement order Joker, it may not see a courtroom but it will be seen by everyone in their circles and nobody wants this to blow up in their face and cause a scandle so nobody will be putting their asses on the line.

Again, doesn't matter. Just because that's what they use it for now doesn't mean that's what it'll be used for in the future. If they decide to start jailing anybody who could POSSIBLY be a terrorist (think Communism scare), they could do just that.
Again, this is not a front end set of laws, it is back end and what we do with people "after" they have already been through the basic process of investigation. This law only changes how we deal with someone after they are proven with their actions to be involved with terrorist activities.

You feel "the potential for harm" in your opinion is enough to not pass the law, but it is the "potential for harm" that is creating it in the first place.

Except we don't give them "rights" or "freedoms" because we don't treat them as prisoners of war, hence why we're ok with waterboarding (hint: You can't torture P.O.W.s). You're just the kind of person who will let them infringe on our rights because it's against TERRORISM(SO SCARY!)! Then when they turn around and use them against normal citizens (because the govt. has never done anything against its own people, right?), you'll say "oh, well, I had no clue it would turn around on me." For someone so conservative, you seem to be strangely OK with govt. overreach.
Actually terrorism is scary, you don't think 9/11 was bad or scary?

You have such a flippant attitude about terrorist acts, you defend them and claim they are just doing what you believe is justified, and that is why any comment you make is worthless because you obviously only want to save Terrorists from being punished for their wrong actions. You will not be the first Liberal to identify with Terrorists/murderers in a positive way.

Also, it has nothing to do with "not wanting to believe the terrorists are bad". It's because, unlike you, I'd like to understand the context behind what's happening, instead of blindly believing whatever the government tells me. Speaking of "weak-minded populace", you apparently can't think for your damn self.
But there is no understanding available when you are being brainwashed by their lies joker. You want to see your own Government as bad so you identify with the terrorists who want to destroy it. The mind of a fanatic is beyond reason joker, just you thinking you can understand them is your own arrogance.
I really have to respond to your mind-boggling idiocy. 1. There is no War on Terror. Al-Queda, the group that plotted 9/11, has no funding and no leaders. This is not liberal spin, this is the truth. We have pretty much nothing to worry about from them.
It was the refusal to admit WW2 was something America should be concerned with that caused pearl harbor, there was a war going on even if America refused to admit it, and we paid the price. 9/11 was an act of war but a new kind of war where there is no head of State to go after, the changing threat and directions do not chage the fact it is war though. Everything they do and the targets they select are for global impact, if not war then what? You seriously do not believe it is the same thing as one guy acting alone do you?

So insisting that there's a trial so proof can be brought against people is bad? Really? Even if some are actual American citizens? Maybe there's a reason you're not in charge, TJ. We have trials for serial killers, why not have trials for alleged terrorists, instead of locking them up indefinitely? After the trial, we can lock them up, and nobody can say we did anything wrong, because we gave them a trial. Hell, even the Nazis were tried after the war, and they were far, far worse then a bunch of poverty-level foreigners.
Terrorists are trying to destroy America as a whole, a serial killer is just feeding his personal illness. All the serial killers combined have not killed as many people as just the one 9/11 attack. The scale of harm is part of the issue Joker.

And I never said no triel, just no civilian courts, the logical place for war criminals is military courts for many reasons but the best reason is our civilian courts are for regular issues between normal people, not for dealing with people trying to wage war on America as an institution. The proper tool for the proper job Joker.

Because most of the time, those people they "arrest" for being terrorists haven't killed anybody. That's kind of a big issue. Also, again: we are NOT at war with ANYBODY. But presidents forever and for always will say we are so they can take away our freedoms, and geniuses like you will just let them because you're easily convinced by scare tactics.
So in your mind if someone only helps the terrorist with money, they are innocent of the crimes that the terrorist causes? If they give aid and shelter that helps the terrorist kill innocents, that to you is a minor crime? Let me give you a little wakeup call (not that you will pay attention) without the support of other people, terrorists cannot do their bigger acts. Sure, a lone idiot can kill a couple people easily enough, but things like high explosives and the knowledge to use them is impossible to get all alone. To pull off something big there is a trail of help a mile long. I believe all those who help are just as guilty as the terrorist who hits the button.

If the Government is not supposed to be protecting America from groups wanting to destroy it is not part of their job, what is? We are at war, not a conventional war but the work of groups trying to destroy America is real, the targets are the core of America, not any single person or group, that is war.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#25
The disrespect of our Constitution from the left and right alike saddens me. We are now a nation that just has to pray the nine oligarchs in black do not put to heavy a yoke on us.
If protecting Americans from those who wish to wage war on us is not a power of the Government already, without new laws, what is?


"I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution ... or have failed their purpose ... or that impose on the people an unwarranted financial burden. I will not attempt to discover whether legislation is 'needed' before I have first determined whether it is constitutionally permissible. And if I should be attacked for neglecting my constituents' 'interests,' I shall reply that I was informed that their main interest is liberty, and in that cause I am doing the very best I can."

Barry Goldwater, a conservative before conservatives started favoring big government and massive deficits.
Blindly opposing Government action is as stupid as blindly allowing it. Nothing is absolute. There are a few things the Government is supposed to do under the Constitution.

Where Goldwater and all true Conservatives agree is in the creation of Government agencies and Government intrustion where it was never supposed to be. Government was never supposed to run public welfare, but it was always assigned with the duty of protecting us from those who wage war on America.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#26
So America being the only reason Afganistan is not now Russian property means nothing to you right? You keep ignoring that they kill children on purpose, you can't honestly believe that people who intentionally target children think rationally.
On Russia: Them not being Russian property was not my point. We CONSTANTLY give weapons to groups who use them for our current interests (because they're our interests at the time), then turn against us or an allied govt. and use those same weapons. Blowback.

On children: Can you name the last time they killed a child? Hell, when was the last terrorist attack, TJ? Can you name it off of the top of your head?


And you can't possibly believe a person capable of killing an innocent child is a rational human being. Primarily the people who do these attacks are those without hope for the future, no jobs, no life, and a fanatical belief that by killing themselves in a "holy war" will offer them a rich reward in the next life. They have nothing to live for and everything to die for. The few people pushing their buttons are simply evil men wallowing in the power to end life on both sides at their whim. Look at history, lots of people love to kill for the feeling of power Joker, these terrorists are not the first.
You believe that bullshit? Jesus, man, you're fucking gullible. We were told it was their religion that made them do the stuff they do, and that's a huge load of shit. Their religion is one of peace, as is Christianity. You don't stone gays and disobedient children, do you? No, you don't. As it turns out, you don't have to listen to everything in your bible.

And what the hell do you mean "without hope for the future"? You have no clue how brainwashing works, do you? Oh, also: their recruitment is WAY DOWN because the same kids they're trying to recruit see that what they're doing is wrong, and that power lies in social networking, not blowing shit up. If you were making this same argument circa 2002, I MIGHT have agreed with you. But you're being ignorant, TJ. You've obviously either never read anything on the subject in depth, or haven't looked at the other side of the coin because you're too dug in with "Muslims = bad". Either way, it's beyond culturally ignorant.

You really are not capable of answering that question yourself?

Ted Bundy getting close to death did a television interview where he spent most of his time blaming porn for his actions. Was he telling the truth or trying to shift at least some blame for his actions onto someone else? Sick people still know they are sick most of the time and will actively do everything in their power to play public opinion in their favor. Like when they put artillery in houseing developments then use the media to say how bad the other people are for bombing a housing area.

But you can't even consider the idea that a terrorist could lie right?
Ted Bundy saying that he blames porn for being a serial killer is NOWHERE NEAR the same. You're trying to straw-man this shit, TJ. Doesn't work. Bundy has no reason to actually admit why he did what he did. The 'terrorists' do. They have a specific mission, with a specific goal to change something. They want that goal to be known.

And yes, I COULD consider the possibility that a terrorist could lie. Fun fact: People who ACTUALLY RESEARCH the subject realize that white people who study history and our effects on the region believe it's our fault. But wait, they must be terrorists too!

A cop "CAN" just pull out his gun and kill you if they want Joker, all they have to do is get their story straight and with you dead, difficult to prove he did anything wrong. Using existing laws someone wanting to be a "bad cop" can already do pretty much what they want to do to you. This law will not change that because it has nothing to do with the front end of the investigation, it is what comes at the end.
So you're perfectly OK with the law because they could totally abuse another law anyway, so what's it gonna hurt? What the hell is wrong with you? The proper response is "change both laws", not "cave in and shrug". Do you understand what you're allowing? I sure hope you're one of the first locked up when they get around to establishing a police state.

Because there is so much attention imposed once someone is tagged as a terrorist threat, it is not reasonable to believe anyone would put themselves under that kind of pressure without good reason Joker. Don't forget that their name goes on the confinement order Joker, it may not see a courtroom but it will be seen by everyone in their circles and nobody wants this to blow up in their face and cause a scandle so nobody will be putting their asses on the line.
Why would there be a scandal? They don't even need to investigate. THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM! You're allowing them to do whatever the hell they want with people they suspect of being terrorists. Last I checked, the bill says nowhere "oh, btw, there needs to be proof". That's why the "lock them away until the 'end of hostilities'" thing is such a big deal.

Again, this is not a front end set of laws, it is back end and what we do with people "after" they have already been through the basic process of investigation. This law only changes how we deal with someone after they are proven with their actions to be involved with terrorist activities.
Bullshit. Show me where it says they require proof. I don't care which end they're screwin' us from, we're still getting screwed.

You feel "the potential for harm" in your opinion is enough to not pass the law, but it is the "potential for harm" that is creating it in the first place.
No. "Potential for abuse" is what I have a problem with. The "potential for abuse" isn't creating it, the "bullshit scare tactics that get ratings" are. Or really, the media goes along with people like McCain who are so against the Constitution that they're willing to violate it to get a hardon when it's a foreigner locked up this time, not him.

Actually terrorism is scary, you don't think 9/11 was bad or scary?
Name the last time you were scared by terrorism. I was 12 on 9/11. I didn't have any context on what had happened and why. The lack of context is why acknowledging blowback is so important. Bush didn't bother informing us that the CIA had pissed off a bunch of foreigners who now hate us for it. They just said "Oh, uh...MUSLIMS!" and everyone took the bait.

Quite frankly, I didn't feel any real emotions about 9/11. Part of that "lack of context" thing. A few buildings in NY got destroyed, people died. I knew none of them, and the whole thing didn't affect me. I know you'll say I'm not American, or that I'm not patriotic, and it's all bullshit. I understand the significance of 9/11, but have no real reason to feel anything.

You have such a flippant attitude about terrorist acts, you defend them and claim they are just doing what you believe is justified, and that is why any comment you make is worthless because you obviously only want to save Terrorists from being punished for their wrong actions. You will not be the first Liberal to identify with Terrorists/murderers in a positive way.
I know, how dare I attempt to flesh out their reasoning instead of condemning them as irrational life-haters. How dare I try to understand those that dislike us instead of trying to pull the trigger. It's almost like you have no desire to actually discuss anything about foreign cultures or our foreign policy without saying "KILL THEM TOWELHEADS!" Speaking of worthless, you're one of the most ignorant human beings I've ever communicated with. Every opinion you have involves you trying to see your own colon instead of the truth.

But there is no understanding available when you are being brainwashed by their lies joker. You want to see your own Government as bad so you identify with the terrorists who want to destroy it. The mind of a fanatic is beyond reason joker, just you thinking you can understand them is your own arrogance.
Yes, I'm the brainwashed one. Not the guy spewing the same Southern States bullshit that we've heard since the terrorists attacked us over a decade ago. I'm the mentally feeble one, for sure.

Also, I don't hate my government. In fact, I like it so much that I want to change it to help it get better, and have a rational discourse about laws that are unConstitutional and have a high potential for abuse. I love our government like an adult loves their parents: I love it, but realize it has flaws like any other. You seem to love our government like a child loves their parents: unconditionally, and nobody had better say anything bad about them or they'll get beat up!
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#27
It was the refusal to admit WW2 was something America should be concerned with that caused pearl harbor, there was a war going on even if America refused to admit it, and we paid the price. 9/11 was an act of war but a new kind of war where there is no head of State to go after, the changing threat and directions do not chage the fact it is war though. Everything they do and the targets they select are for global impact, if not war then what? You seriously do not believe it is the same thing as one guy acting alone do you?
Yes, because a World War and the "War on Terror" are SO totally close to the same thing. The US was even isolationist until 9/11, right TJ? Man, whoever taught you history needs to be shot, because they obviously failed you. Fun facts: We were INTENTIONALLY avoiding WW2. Also, that didn't cause Pearl Harbor. What did cause Pearl Harbor was Japanese desperation when we stopped them from purchasing oil from us. They had to take the oil fields in the Dutch East Indies and attacked the fleet at Pearl Harbor because that was the only fleet strong enough to take the fields back from them at the time. Read a fucking book.
By the way, straw-man again. Nice. There is no "war" going on. Hell, there's no threat at all from the group we were really 'warring' against. But keep believing the lies, whatever works for you.
Terrorists are trying to destroy America as a whole, a serial killer is just feeding his personal illness. All the serial killers combined have not killed as many people as just the one 9/11 attack. The scale of harm is part of the issue Joker.
No, they aren't. They're expressing their anger with the fact that we keep meddling in their affairs (for like, you know, 50 years or whatever). As for scale of harm, doesn't matter. Try them like a normal person. Part of having a First World country is going through the motions.
And I never said no triel, just no civilian courts, the logical place for war criminals is military courts for many reasons but the best reason is our civilian courts are for regular issues between normal people, not for dealing with people trying to wage war on America as an institution. The proper tool for the proper job Joker.
Except they don't need to be tried, which is my point.
So in your mind if someone only helps the terrorist with money, they are innocent of the crimes that the terrorist causes? If they give aid and shelter that helps the terrorist kill innocents, that to you is a minor crime? Let me give you a little wakeup call (not that you will pay attention) without the support of other people, terrorists cannot do their bigger acts. Sure, a lone idiot can kill a couple people easily enough, but things like high explosives and the knowledge to use them is impossible to get all alone. To pull off something big there is a trail of help a mile long. I believe all those who help are just as guilty as the terrorist who hits the button.
Hey, TJ: You're on the internet. I'm going to show you something that'll probably get me on an FBI watchlist, but...
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4163387
That's the Anarchist's Cookbook. It'll teach you how to make bombs.
According to the FBI: "168 souls lost, including 19 children, with several hundred more injured." Know what that's from, TJ? The Oklahoma City bombing. That was a 'lone idiot'. You can take your "wakeup call" and shove it up your ass, you arrogant fool.
Also: I never said not to punish those who assist terrorists. But there's a reason that "aiding and abetting a felony" gets you less time than "committing a felony". It's a lesser crime, no matter what you seem to think.
If the Government is not supposed to be protecting America from groups wanting to destroy it is not part of their job, what is? We are at war, not a conventional war but the work of groups trying to destroy America is real, the targets are the core of America, not any single person or group, that is war.
Still not at war, no matter how many times you say it. They aren't trying to destroy America, no matter how many times you say it. The government keeps causing its own problems, so maybe it's time they stay out of shit for once.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#28
On Russia: Them not being Russian property was not my point. We CONSTANTLY give weapons to groups who use them for our current interests (because they're our interests at the time), then turn against us or an allied govt. and use those same weapons. Blowback.
Um....it was in "their" interests as well right? We helped them because they needed help, without America all of Afganistan would have been owned by Russia, keeping our noses out of things means they die, but they and you can't admit that because it does not match up to your need to see America as evil.

On children: Can you name the last time they killed a child? Hell, when was the last terrorist attack, TJ? Can you name it off of the top of your head?
How many or how often is enough for you to say it is bad? About 40 children and over a hundred adults were killed in Norway by terrorists last year off the top of my head, I am sure there are more but does it matter how many? I don't believe any groups who target children should be considered trustworthy Joker? You do?

You believe that bullshit? Jesus, man, you're fucking gullible. We were told it was their religion that made them do the stuff they do, and that's a huge load of shit. Their religion is one of peace, as is Christianity. You don't stone gays and disobedient children, do you? No, you don't. As it turns out, you don't have to listen to everything in your bible.
Muslims stone gays and women who were raped, bad example Joker.

I believe the truth yes. Unlike yourself I have 3 copies of the Quran and have read all 3 but the real issue is not the words but how they are delivered. The vast majority of the Muslim masses where they do most of the recruoting can't read Joker, they have no clue what is in their Quran, it is the radical Imams that twist their religion and drive their fanatical actions, just like Europeans during the dark ages, it is truly horrible what can be done with uneducated masses.

You agree that 9/11 was done by elements out of Afganistan right? Over half the population of Afganistan live below poverty, and most are illeterate, even the cream of the crop who get to take military training are illeterate, this from the NPR:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/09/afghan_armys_90_percent_illite.html


And what the hell do you mean "without hope for the future"? You have no clue how brainwashing works, do you? Oh, also: their recruitment is WAY DOWN because the same kids they're trying to recruit see that what they're doing is wrong, and that power lies in social networking, not blowing shit up. If you were making this same argument circa 2002, I MIGHT have agreed with you. But you're being ignorant, TJ. You've obviously either never read anything on the subject in depth, or haven't looked at the other side of the coin because you're too dug in with "Muslims = bad". Either way, it's beyond culturally ignorant.
It is you who is being ignorant, you don;t even try to go out and see what is really happening in the world, you simply swallow whatever the radical liberals say at face value and believe that crap. Illeteracy and poverty are still massive in almost all Muslim dense areas of the world. Don't take my word for it, go google the rates by Country. I offer you the link above showing 90% can't read.

If you are uneducated, hungry and poor and no concept of a better life ahead of you, turning to radical grips of religion is easily accomplished.


Ted Bundy saying that he blames porn for being a serial killer is NOWHERE NEAR the same. You're trying to straw-man this shit, TJ. Doesn't work. Bundy has no reason to actually admit why he did what he did. The 'terrorists' do. They have a specific mission, with a specific goal to change something. They want that goal to be known.
What? Death bed confession Joker, it has long been seen that close to death, people turn to repent, they are driven to admit their faults and come clean for the after life, there is even special laws on the books in all States on supporting death bed confessions Joker, did you know that?

Bundy had every reason to tell the truth while the terrorists have every reason to lie. There is no specific mission by terrorists other than to kill "infidels". You are a fool if you believe the actual terrorists see anything but their "holy war". Playing a media war against us is just part of the plan. Weak minded people like you buy into the lies because you hate your own Country.


And yes, I COULD consider the possibility that a terrorist could lie. Fun fact: People who ACTUALLY RESEARCH the subject realize that white people who study history and our effects on the region believe it's our fault. But wait, they must be terrorists too!
No, they are liberals like you who want to believe America is bad just like they want to believe man has caused temperature changes. It is the same mentality to see America as bad any way possible so any theory that comes along to feed that desire is instantly grasped by them.

If I am to trust anyone, it is not going to be someone who intentionally kills children, that mind is just too sick to listen to and proves they are no better than rabid dogs.

So you're perfectly OK with the law because they could totally abuse another law anyway, so what's it gonna hurt? What the hell is wrong with you? The proper response is "change both laws", not "cave in and shrug". Do you understand what you're allowing? I sure hope you're one of the first locked up when they get around to establishing a police state.
The proper "liberal" response maybe, lol.

You as usual fail to grasp the real world, "IF" they want to, they already have the tools on the front end to screw with anyone they want to, this is not a front end law, it is a back end law that helps us deal with terrorists after it has already been established who they are. You have to get this point to understand what this set of laws is in reality instead of what you have "imagined" it to be. But don't feel alone in that, people like hugo can't understand it either.


Why would there be a scandal? They don't even need to investigate. THAT'S THE FUCKING PROBLEM! You're allowing them to do whatever the hell they want with people they suspect of being terrorists. Last I checked, the bill says nowhere "oh, btw, there needs to be proof". That's why the "lock them away until the 'end of hostilities'" thing is such a big deal.
That is because once again this is not a front end law, it kicks in after the other investigations are done Joker, you keep having a difficult time understanding this basic principle. How can we treat a person as a terrorist if they have not been investigated yet? This is about what we do "AFTER" they have that designation. The investigation must come first, basic logic there Joker.


Bullshit. Show me where it says they require proof. I don't care which end they're screwin' us from, we're still getting screwed.
We? You a terrorist Joker? You fear that you have been associating with the wrong people and don't want to get stuck in a crack? You certainly show a lot of sympathy for them, even defend their actions to kill children as reasonable to you so I can see where that is possible.

The proof is in the definitions, to treat someone as a terrorits threat they must first have that label attached, now how do you suppose the investigation system attaches that lable? Maybe they were doing investigations and found some people who were working with terrorists? Logic is not your strong suit is it?


No. "Potential for abuse" is what I have a problem with. The "potential for abuse" isn't creating it, the "bullshit scare tactics that get ratings" are. Or really, the media goes along with people like McCain who are so against the Constitution that they're willing to violate it to get a hardon when it's a foreigner locked up this time, not him.
The media going along with McCain? Do you even read what you write? The media hates all Conservatives and will not blindly go along with anything they say. If the media is going along with it, you can bet it is not because of what a Conservative says.

There is no potential for abuse with this specific set of laws because it only kicks in after the investigations identify a terrorist for it to react to, the investigation must come first or there is no identified terrorist for it to deal with.


Name the last time you were scared by terrorism. I was 12 on 9/11. I didn't have any context on what had happened and why. The lack of context is why acknowledging blowback is so important. Bush didn't bother informing us that the CIA had pissed off a bunch of foreigners who now hate us for it. They just said "Oh, uh...MUSLIMS!" and everyone took the bait.
Telloing you the CIA caused the 9/11 attack would be a lie, just like you radical guys who believed 9/11 was an inside job ordered by Bush, you leap on any excuse to see America and it's leaders as bad. The last time I felt real fear for our Nation concerning terrorists was the Fort Hood shooting, where muslim fanatical attacks came in the form of an American soldier, educated and successful, who tossed it all away to 'kill the infidel'. Being uneducated and falling into this kind of fanatical behavior is almost something we can understand, but this is different.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#29
Quite frankly, I didn't feel any real emotions about 9/11. Part of that "lack of context" thing. A few buildings in NY got destroyed, people died. I knew none of them, and the whole thing didn't affect me. I know you'll say I'm not American, or that I'm not patriotic, and it's all bullshit. I understand the significance of 9/11, but have no real reason to feel anything.
So because you and yours were safe, other people getting killed means nothing to you. Not an uncommon possition for a Liberal. You do not need to be patriotic, religious, or even an American to see the killing of innocents on 9/11 to be a horrible act. There is no justification for that, only the most sick in mind would belive killing innocents is okay.

I know, how dare I attempt to flesh out their reasoning instead of condemning them as irrational life-haters. How dare I try to understand those that dislike us instead of trying to pull the trigger. It's almost like you have no desire to actually discuss anything about foreign cultures or our foreign policy without saying "KILL THEM TOWELHEADS!" Speaking of worthless, you're one of the most ignorant human beings I've ever communicated with. Every opinion you have involves you trying to see your own colon instead of the truth.
And yet you ignore the reasons for why America tried to help in these many things. You only want to see the terrorist side of things but the problem is you only learn what they spoon feed you and you do not see the truth, only the play they are showing and doing something completely different behind the curtain.

Have you heard about Muzzammil Hassan? He was a Muslim television station owner who was working for years to try and change the stereotypes of Muslims. Well his wife decided to divorce him and what did he do? He cut off her head. In the trial he claimed "HE" was the victim of domestic violence and had to kill her to protect himself and his children..........But why cut off her head? A lot of Muslim groups have worked hard to distance their faith from this event but beheading is a long seen acceptable proactice in their society for those who insult or shame you, especially when a woman insults her husband.

Yes, I'm the brainwashed one. Not the guy spewing the same Southern States bullshit that we've heard since the terrorists attacked us over a decade ago. I'm the mentally feeble one, for sure.
Southern States? Now why would you say that? So you Liberals feel it is okay to use general attacks on groups you do not agree with but other people who do it are bad?

I have never said "all" Muslims are bad, but I am saying they are going through their own "dark ages" and just like Christians of the time, it is people of their own faith that must step up to stop it. Christians saw their mistakes and took direct actions to sever support for the crusades, without that support, the crusades quickly ended. This is the same for Muslims, already we see a great deal of improvement with more and more Muslims distancing themselves form terrorist groups but it is not over yet, and if we relax now it will blow up on us again.

It is like antibiotics, they tell you to finish the prescription even if you feel better because while your symptoms are improved, the infection is still there trying to hang on. If you stop taking them too soon the infection comes back stronger than ever and now resistant to the antibiotics.


Also, I don't hate my government. In fact, I like it so much that I want to change it to help it get better, and have a rational discourse about laws that are unConstitutional and have a high potential for abuse. I love our government like an adult loves their parents: I love it, but realize it has flaws like any other. You seem to love our government like a child loves their parents: unconditionally, and nobody had better say anything bad about them or they'll get beat up!
Again, treating war criminals as war criminals is not unconstitutional. If you are trying to destroy America as a whole, you are waging war.

All this set of laws does is define these terrorists that are found as being treated as the war criminals they are. I offered the Civial war as a great example, and I see beither you dared to address that fact. America has had to turn to war tactics before, and it was for good reason, you liberals like that reason we turned to war so you can't bring yourself to admit that sometimes this is needed, but because you feel a kinship with the terrorists you don't like the war actions "this time".


Yes, because a World War and the "War on Terror" are SO totally close to the same thing. The US was even isolationist until 9/11, right TJ?
Where did I say that? Why is it Liberals make shit up claiming I said things I never said.

We were not isolationists, we were the only reason Afganistan was not taken over by Russians, we have actively helped the Muslim world for many years, in fact we currently supply most of the food they eat to survive. If you believe helping them is wrong does that mean we should stop feeding them?

Man, whoever taught you history needs to be shot, because they obviously failed you. Fun facts: We were INTENTIONALLY avoiding WW2. Also, that didn't cause Pearl Harbor. What did cause Pearl Harbor was Japanese desperation when we stopped them from purchasing oil from us. They had to take the oil fields in the Dutch East Indies and attacked the fleet at Pearl Harbor because that was the only fleet strong enough to take the fields back from them at the time. Read a fucking book.
And if we had joined the fight earlier, Pearl harbor would never have happened right? You rant and rave trying to call me stupid and you missed the point completely. You may have read a book or two but you lack the ability to apply what you have read to real life. The fact that America trying to ignore a world war was going on is what cause our ships to be sitting still in Pearl Harbor in the first place, if these ships had been deployed they would not be grouped up for an easy attack....right Joker?

Wake up kid.

Can you grasp that idea?
By the way, straw-man again. Nice. There is no "war" going on. Hell, there's no threat at all from the group we were really 'warring' against. But keep believing the lies, whatever works for you.
No threat? So you believe all terrorists have changed their minds about destroying the "infidels" and we can all just relax? Tell me something, if we do as you say, give up on stopping terrorists and we get another 9/11 attack, can we hold you responsible? Do you pay for the harm caused? Do you care for the families who lost loved ones? Do you pay for the cleanup and losses out of your pocket? The reason why the Federal Government has to take actions is because it is them who has to answer for it when another attack happens.

No, they aren't. They're expressing their anger with the fact that we keep meddling in their affairs (for like, you know, 50 years or whatever). As for scale of harm, doesn't matter. Try them like a normal person. Part of having a First World country is going through the motions.
Meddling like saving them from the Russians? You believe we should have just sat back and let the Russians kill them off and take their land?

The problem is they are not a normal person committing a normal crime Joker. They are attacking America as a whole, not any single person or group. And what is this about "first world Country"? Do you even know where the term comes from? The term comes from those Nations aligned with the Unites States after WW 2 and during the cold war. The primary connection was free markets and democracy. The terrorists are trying to destroy free markets and democracy so they do not deserve to get protections they are trying to destroy.

Funny they want "fair" treatments when they desire to kill innocents.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#30
Except they don't need to be tried, which is my point.
They don't need to be tried now. What has changed Joker? Even your God Obama who promised to end rendition changed his mind once he was the President and said rendition is a good thing. You are getting all upset over this law when it changes nothing in reality. It is the politicans like Obama who lie to your face and you simply keep voting for them over and over again. No politician will let the terrorists go free knowing that if even 1 of them kill another child, that death will hang around their neck for all to see.

Hey, TJ: You're on the internet. I'm going to show you something that'll probably get me on an FBI watchlist, but...
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4163387
That's the Anarchist's Cookbook. It'll teach you how to make bombs.
Do you think it is that easy Joker? Actually read some of the directions on how to make that stuff, while making plastic explosives for example you need to have temperatures within a very narrow band or it explodes in your face. The average human could not design the temperature controlled mixing bowl to even get started. You are a child in mind, you do not understand the complex issues you are trying to speak about. I had a copy of the Anarchist's cookbook in my hands when I was 20 years old, it may seem special and exciting to you, but to most it is just a part of life to know if we want to destroy we can have some good tools to do it but we can't do it all by ourselves. If the few guys who can understand how to make explosives also kill themselves, the skill is lost pretty fast right? Now you know why they strap these bombs on the uneducated and poor and get them to die for their cause while the smart ones get to live.


According to the FBI: "168 souls lost, including 19 children, with several hundred more injured." Know what that's from, TJ? The Oklahoma City bombing. That was a 'lone idiot'. You can take your "wakeup call" and shove it up your ass, you arrogant fool.
Do you really believe he did all that alone? Really? You never hear of Terry Nichols? There were a lot of people who helped him and I believe they all should have been guilty of a terrorisy act as well. This kind of thing is not what our legal system was designed to deal with. Acts of war are completely different than normal crimes and yes, I believe this group was trying to go to war with the Go9vernment to tear it down because they were angry.

Also: I never said not to punish those who assist terrorists. But there's a reason that "aiding and abetting a felony" gets you less time than "committing a felony". It's a lesser crime, no matter what you seem to think.
Um......they did not just kill 1 person, or even 2 or 5 people, the body count was officially around 6,000 people I believe. This is not just a normal crime and should not be treated as such because you mininish the event the you insult the dead by saying it was just another felony, no9 big deal.

Still not at war, no matter how many times you say it. They aren't trying to destroy America, no matter how many times you say it. The government keeps causing its own problems, so maybe it's time they stay out of shit for once.
Too bad the terrorists do not listen to you, they are still attacking and trying to destroy Infidels all over the world, I guess "you" are not at war because it has not bothered you yet, but answer me this, what if your parents were killed by a terrorist bomb, would you still believe the killings are justified and the terrorists are the good guys?
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#31
Um....it was in "their" interests as well right? We helped them because they needed help, without America all of Afganistan would have been owned by Russia, keeping our noses out of things means they die, but they and you can't admit that because it does not match up to your need to see America as evil.
You're like a broken record. No, I don't hate my country. I've said this several times, but you're trying to choke me out by shoving words down my throat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Attackers_and_their_background

Read that. I'm done arguing against your ignorant views. You can say I'm a Liberal all you want (I'm not)
but the fact is that you're so stubborn and bullheaded that you can't actually wrap your head around the fact that Bin Laden has been calling for us to get out of that area for decades. Hell, our support of Israel is enough to get most countries in the region to hate us.

How many or how often is enough for you to say it is bad? About 40 children and over a hundred adults were killed in Norway by terrorists last year off the top of my head, I am sure there are more but does it matter how many? I don't believe any groups who target children should be considered trustworthy Joker? You do?
The terrorist in Norway was local, TJ. Again, read a fucking book.

Muslims stone gays and women who were raped, bad example Joker.
No, radical Muslims do. The Westboro Baptist Church equivalent of Muslims do. Not real, normal Muslims.

I believe the truth yes. Unlike yourself I have 3 copies of the Quran and have read all 3 but the real issue is not the words but how they are delivered. The vast majority of the Muslim masses where they do most of the recruoting can't read Joker, they have no clue what is in their Quran, it is the radical Imams that twist their religion and drive their fanatical actions, just like Europeans during the dark ages, it is truly horrible what can be done with uneducated masses.

You agree that 9/11 was done by elements out of Afganistan right? Over half the population of Afganistan live below poverty, and most are illeterate, even the cream of the crop who get to take military training are illeterate, this from the NPR:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/09/afghan_armys_90_percent_illite.html
Fifteen of the men were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one (Atta) from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.

Do you see Afghani anywhere there, TJ? No? As it turns out, I DON'T agree that they had anything to do with this. I believe Bin Laden was just staying in Afghanistan at the time. Read. A. Book.

It is you who is being ignorant, you don;t even try to go out and see what is really happening in the world, you simply swallow whatever the radical liberals say at face value and believe that crap. Illeteracy and poverty are still massive in almost all Muslim dense areas of the world. Don't take my word for it, go google the rates by Country. I offer you the link above showing 90% can't read.

If you are uneducated, hungry and poor and no concept of a better life ahead of you, turning to radical grips of religion is easily accomplished.
I'm so ignorant that I know none of the hijackers were Afghani. Common sense, really; I wouldn't trust someone who couldn't read to hijack a plane.

The literacy rate is better outside of the military. Not by much, but it's better.

BTW, Saudi Arabia's literacy rate is 86.1. There goes that argument.

What? Death bed confession Joker, it has long been seen that close to death, people turn to repent, they are driven to admit their faults and come clean for the after life, there is even special laws on the books in all States on supporting death bed confessions Joker, did you know that?

Bundy had every reason to tell the truth while the terrorists have every reason to lie. There is no specific mission by terrorists other than to kill "infidels". You are a fool if you believe the actual terrorists see anything but their "holy war". Playing a media war against us is just part of the plan. Weak minded people like you buy into the lies because you hate your own Country.
Again, STILL don't hate America, you clod. No matter how many times you say something, it doesn't make it true. You have NO FUCKING INSIGHT into how these people think. You assume you do, but you really don't. You know next to nothing of the regional history since we started interfering with them. You have NO FUCKING CLUE what's going on. You choose to remain ignorant because you see the whole thing as a conspiracy, not for what it actually is: people getting pissed off because we can't keep our nose out of their business. Hell, look at what Bin Laden said. He had nothing against us for helping him. He wanted us to leave right after though, as we had no real right to occupy any areas after that.

No, they are liberals like you who want to believe America is bad just like they want to believe man has caused temperature changes. It is the same mentality to see America as bad any way possible so any theory that comes along to feed that desire is instantly grasped by them.
STILL not a liberal, you clod. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man Yeah.

Don't believe in man-made global warming, you clod.

STILL don't hate America, you fucking clod. Get that through your head. Jesus, you are a broken fucking record.

If I am to trust anyone, it is not going to be someone who intentionally kills children, that mind is just too sick to listen to and proves they are no better than rabid dogs.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...uster-bombs-killed-35-women-and-children.html Yet you seem to trust our military. They INTENTIONALLY attacked the area because it was an alleged Al-Queda training camp. 21 children, TJ. We deliberately killed 21 children. Thank God we can say it was an act of war instead of the terrorist action it really was.

The proper "liberal" response maybe, lol.
Still not a liberal, you jackass.

You as usual fail to grasp the real world, "IF" they want to, they already have the tools on the front end to screw with anyone they want to, this is not a front end law, it is a back end law that helps us deal with terrorists after it has already been established who they are. You have to get this point to understand what this set of laws is in reality instead of what you have "imagined" it to be. But don't feel alone in that, people like hugo can't understand it either.
Fine, TJ. I challenge you to show me that those investigations need definitive proof that someone's a terrorist, instead of just saying "oh man, we suspect them." And don't give me any of that "confinement order" bullshit you posted a few back.

That is because once again this is not a front end law, it kicks in after the other investigations are done Joker, you keep having a difficult time understanding this basic principle. How can we treat a person as a terrorist if they have not been investigated yet? This is about what we do "AFTER" they have that designation. The investigation must come first, basic logic there Joker.
You seem to not understand my point though. What do these investigations entail? Do they need real proof, or not? Hell, I've googled the Anarchist's Cookbook, the Oklahoma City bombing, and 9/11 several times in the past few days. That's a little suspicious, right? Am I a terrorist? More importantly, does that matter to them?

We? You a terrorist Joker? You fear that you have been associating with the wrong people and don't want to get stuck in a crack? You certainly show a lot of sympathy for them, even defend their actions to kill children as reasonable to you so I can see where that is possible.
I don't defend how they go about what they do. I don't defend the murder of children. I show no sympathy for them. I'm merely showing an understanding of why they feel the need to do what they do. I can understand why someone thought doing something was a good idea, whether I agree with it or not.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#32
The proof is in the definitions, to treat someone as a terrorits threat they must first have that label attached, now how do you suppose the investigation system attaches that lable? Maybe they were doing investigations and found some people who were working with terrorists? Logic is not your strong suit is it?
Again, prove that they actually need proof, instead of suspicion. Logic seems to escape you, TJ. You seem to assume that they have to have definitive proof every time, and I've seen nowhere that says this is the case.

The media going along with McCain? Do you even read what you write? The media hates all Conservatives and will not blindly go along with anything they say. If the media is going along with it, you can bet it is not because of what a Conservative says.
They will go blindly when it involves terrorism. They go with what gets them ratings, and scaring them into thinking terrorists will eat their children gets them those ratings.

There is no potential for abuse with this specific set of laws because it only kicks in after the investigations identify a terrorist for it to react to, the investigation must come first or there is no identified terrorist for it to deal with.
You miss the point entirely. We shouldn't be holding people indefinitely without trial, which is what the bill is OK with.

Telloing you the CIA caused the 9/11 attack would be a lie, just like you radical guys who believed 9/11 was an inside job ordered by Bush, you leap on any excuse to see America and it's leaders as bad.
I've never believed 9/11 was an inside job. You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not a 'radical guy'. The CIA caused the Iranian Hostage Crisis. The US Govt. keeping troops in Saudi Arabia and supporting Israel was a big reason Bin Laden was pissed. We cause our own problems, TJ. Get over it.

The last time I felt real fear for our Nation concerning terrorists was the Fort Hood shooting, where muslim fanatical attacks came in the form of an American soldier, educated and successful, who tossed it all away to 'kill the infidel'. Being uneducated and falling into this kind of fanatical behavior is almost something we can understand, but this is different.
Yes, he was brainwashed by a Muslim fanatic. I won't dispute this.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#33
So because you and yours were safe, other people getting killed means nothing to you. Not an uncommon possition for a Liberal. You do not need to be patriotic, religious, or even an American to see the killing of innocents on 9/11 to be a horrible act. There is no justification for that, only the most sick in mind would belive killing innocents is okay.
Still not a Liberal. I never said it wasn't a horrible act. I never said it was okay. I just felt no emotional pull in either direction.

And yet you ignore the reasons for why America tried to help in these many things. You only want to see the terrorist side of things but the problem is you only learn what they spoon feed you and you do not see the truth, only the play they are showing and doing something completely different behind the curtain.
It's like you try to be dense.

Have you heard about Muzzammil Hassan? He was a Muslim television station owner who was working for years to try and change the stereotypes of Muslims. Well his wife decided to divorce him and what did he do? He cut off her head. In the trial he claimed "HE" was the victim of domestic violence and had to kill her to protect himself and his children..........But why cut off her head? A lot of Muslim groups have worked hard to distance their faith from this event but beheading is a long seen acceptable proactice in their society for those who insult or shame you, especially when a woman insults her husband.
Except he was abusive and violent for years prior. This wasn't a random instance of him going nuts. He was a bad person, religion had nothing to do with it.

Southern States? Now why would you say that? So you Liberals feel it is okay to use general attacks on groups you do not agree with but other people who do it are bad?
I'd be ok with you attacking Liberals if you stopped trying to call me one.

I have never said "all" Muslims are bad, but I am saying they are going through their own "dark ages" and just like Christians of the time, it is people of their own faith that must step up to stop it. Christians saw their mistakes and took direct actions to sever support for the crusades, without that support, the crusades quickly ended. This is the same for Muslims, already we see a great deal of improvement with more and more Muslims distancing themselves form terrorist groups but it is not over yet, and if we relax now it will blow up on us again.
Yes, they took action so quickly that there were 3 of them. They aren't going through a Dark Ages. They have groups within, just like other religions, that are bad. See Westboro Baptist Church.

Again, treating war criminals as war criminals is not unconstitutional. If you are trying to destroy America as a whole, you are waging war.
Except torture is against the Geneva Convention, so...

All this set of laws does is define these terrorists that are found as being treated as the war criminals they are. I offered the Civial war as a great example, and I see beither you dared to address that fact. America has had to turn to war tactics before, and it was for good reason, you liberals like that reason we turned to war so you can't bring yourself to admit that sometimes this is needed, but because you feel a kinship with the terrorists you don't like the war actions "this time".
Except we already had a process for dealing with them, which is kind of the same process, so why bother to get it on the books? And the Civil War was an actual war. There is no actual war going on right now, TJ.

Where did I say that? Why is it Liberals make shit up claiming I said things I never said.
One day I'd love to meet this Liberal you keep saying is attacking you. I never said you said that, genius. I was making fun of your ridiculous comparison. L2Reading Comprehension.

We were not isolationists, we were the only reason Afganistan was not taken over by Russians, we have actively helped the Muslim world for many years, in fact we currently supply most of the food they eat to survive. If you believe helping them is wrong does that mean we should stop feeding them?
They just want our troops out of there and for us to stop supporting Israel, because Israel's kind of a dick.

And if we had joined the fight earlier, Pearl harbor would never have happened right? You rant and rave trying to call me stupid and you missed the point completely. You may have read a book or two but you lack the ability to apply what you have read to real life. The fact that America trying to ignore a world war was going on is what cause our ships to be sitting still in Pearl Harbor in the first place, if these ships had been deployed they would not be grouped up for an easy attack....right Joker?
The problem is that we weren't completely isolationist. We kept fucking Japan over, so they got desperate. And who says something like Pearl Harbor wouldn't have happened? If the Japanese would've gotten that desperate, they probably would've figured out where the fleets were that could take them down and do the same exact thing. Hell, we were far more focused on the European Theater than we were Japan until the very end, when we nuked them.

Wake up kid.

Can you grasp that idea?
Is there an idea you CAN grasp?

No threat? So you believe all terrorists have changed their minds about destroying the "infidels" and we can all just relax? Tell me something, if we do as you say, give up on stopping terrorists and we get another 9/11 attack, can we hold you responsible? Do you pay for the harm caused? Do you care for the families who lost loved ones? Do you pay for the cleanup and losses out of your pocket? The reason why the Federal Government has to take actions is because it is them who has to answer for it when another attack happens.
I believe that if we got out of their countries and left them alone, there would be a good chance they'd keep attacking each other, instead of us. We can be watchful without stationing troops in their countries.

Meddling like saving them from the Russians? You believe we should have just sat back and let the Russians kill them off and take their land?
Where is that Liberal you keep talking about? I think he's putting words in both of our mouths. Oh, no, wait, that's you. BTW, the Straw Man fallacy STILL isn't doing anything for you, old man.

The problem is they are not a normal person committing a normal crime Joker. They are attacking America as a whole, not any single person or group. And what is this about "first world Country"? Do you even know where the term comes from? The term comes from those Nations aligned with the Unites States after WW 2 and during the cold war. The primary connection was free markets and democracy. The terrorists are trying to destroy free markets and democracy so they do not deserve to get protections they are trying to destroy.

Funny they want "fair" treatments when they desire to kill innocents.
We kill innocents all of the time. It's cute how you think we don't. And they aren't trying to destroy Democracy. Holy shit you've been brainwashed. They aren't trying to destroy our freedoms, you jackass. Get out of your house and talk to a few Muslims, and I promise you if they know anything about the Middle East, they can tell you why the terrorists hate us. And by us, I mean our intrusive government, not the people as a whole.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#34
You're like a broken record. No, I don't hate my country. I've said this several times, but you're trying to choke me out by shoving words down my throat.
Actions speak louder than words, everything you say is hate of your Nation and showing support and understanding to those who want to destroy it. You say terrorist acts to kill American children is justified, you can't hate America much more than that.

Read that. I'm done arguing against your ignorant views. You can say I'm a Liberal all you want (I'm not)
but the fact is that you're so stubborn and bullheaded that you can't actually wrap your head around the fact that Bin Laden has been calling for us to get out of that area for decades.
You are a Liberal based on your actions, you can say your not all you want and that does not change the fact you are.

You keep dodging my point over and over where Bin Laden likes American interference well enough when we saved his life. When you own your life to America, trying to later kill all Americans is a little bit disrespectful don;t you think? They have no actual grounds for complaint when clearly they only exist because of American interference. Seems they want it both ways.


Hell, our support of Israel is enough to get most countries in the region to hate us.
So you feel it is okay for terrorists to kill children if they do not like who we are friends with? Well America did not like some of other people's friends and acted on it, how is that any different to your Liberal mind Joker? So let me get this straight so I know what you are proposing, if any group says they do not like what we do, we should run away scared because they are justified to kill our children if we don't? You believe that is reasonable?

The terrorist in Norway was local, TJ. Again, read a fucking book.
Fuck you kid, you asked me to speak on kids being killed off the top of my head and I did, if you wanted to put limitations on it you should have worded your question differently. The point is no matter who the terrorists are, and where they are located, terrorists do things like kill children, how can you align yourself to try and defend their actions as justified Joker?

No, radical Muslims do. The Westboro Baptist Church equivalent of Muslims do. Not real, normal Muslims.
Can you tell a radical from a so called "normal" Muslim Joker? Was Muzzammil Hassan a norlam or radical Muslim when he cut his wifes head off for daring to try and divorce him?

Fifteen of the men were from Saudi Arabia, two from the United Arab Emirates, one (Atta) from Egypt, and one from Lebanon.

Do you see Afghani anywhere there, TJ? No? As it turns out, I DON'T agree that they had anything to do with this. I believe Bin Laden was just staying in Afghanistan at the time. Read. A. Book.
I am not the dumbass who thinks that just because somneone was born in one place, they can't be conditioned and trained in another. Bin Laden was born in Saudi but was the main fighter for Afganistan against the Russians so what is your point? Clearly all these peopel held great allegence to Afganistan and their leader Bin Laden.

I'm so ignorant that I know none of the hijackers were Afghani. Common sense, really; I wouldn't trust someone who couldn't read to hijack a plane.
Bin Laden was not from Afganistan but that did not stop him from fighting "for" Afganistan.


The literacy rate is better outside of the military. Not by much, but it's better.

BTW, Saudi Arabia's literacy rate is 86.1. There goes that argument.
Nope, that is now, at the time of the terrorist attacks it was below 40%, you also have to look how they rate literacy, it is not comparable to American standards, just to let you know. You keep talking about reading books and forget to read yourself.

The real issue is recruitment though, almost all of them are illeterate, so easily manipulated by evil men like Bin Laden and the more radical Imams.

Again, STILL don't hate America, you clod. No matter how many times you say something, it doesn't make it true. You have NO FUCKING INSIGHT into how these people think. You assume you do, but you really don't. You know next to nothing of the regional history since we started interfering with them. You have NO FUCKING CLUE what's going on. You choose to remain ignorant because you see the whole thing as a conspiracy, not for what it actually is: people getting pissed off because we can't keep our nose out of their business. Hell, look at what Bin Laden said. He had nothing against us for helping him. He wanted us to leave right after though, as we had no real right to occupy any areas after that.
You do hate America, every comment you ever make on this forum has been colored with your hate for your own Country.

You claim to have insight into the minds of terrorists but your just a damn kid, did you ever move out of your parents house? You said before the real world was too difficult for you so you had to stay on mommies tit. Now suddenly you claim to be a middle east expert and can read the minds of terrorists? You trust terrorists to never lie to you?

America put our nose in their business to save their Country, to save their lives, and to provide most of the food the poor was eating, they can't have it both ways. Don't tell us you need us to pay your bills, save your land, and feed your poor and at the same time claim you hate us for meddling........that is just not logical.



You are using strawman, not me kid. Can't expect much more just such an immature kid though.

Don't believe in man-made global warming, you clod.
Clod? Has that insult resurfaced with you kids? Incredible you kids don;t have any new material so you have to dig up 40 year old insults to toss at people.

STILL don't hate America, you fucking clod. Get that through your head. Jesus, you are a broken fucking record.
And you telling the same lie that you are not liberal is also a broken record. Liberal is a definition to describe basic political alignment Joker, you promote things like protecting terrorists who want to destroy America, that is not Conservative my friend.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...uster-bombs-killed-35-women-and-children.html Yet you seem to trust our military. They INTENTIONALLY attacked the area because it was an alleged Al-Queda training camp. 21 children, TJ. We deliberately killed 21 children. Thank God we can say it was an act of war instead of the terrorist action it really was.
Lie, and further proof you are a Liberal for telling that lie.

They attacked a suspected terrorist training camp, not a school bus. I have never said innocents do not get killed by all sides, what I said was terrorists prefer to attack children and woman for the shock value. Our troops are not intentionally killing children Joker, and you telling that lie proves how much you have your Country. The problem is terrorists hide around their own innocents so they can get their own people killed for media purposes.

It is all terrorist propaganda they create themselves.
Still not a liberal, you jackass.
Yes you are, I see you keep dodging my points with these though, typical Liberal behavior.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#35
Fine, TJ. I challenge you to show me that those investigations need definitive proof that someone's a terrorist, instead of just saying "oh man, we suspect them." And don't give me any of that "confinement order" bullshit you posted a few back.
I already have kid, over and over I explained the process to you but you blind yourself to the reality, all you are willing to see is stuff that feeds your hate of America, you made up your mind and no amount of reality will sway you.


I know you are still a kiid, but try to use a little bit of common sense. The purpose is to catch terrorists trying to kill Amricans, hnow does putting any random person in jail help that goal? You have to remember that these are people like you and me working these jobs and they want to do a good job. So to do as you claim they will do they have to not care if Terrorists kill Americans.

Secondly, there is a confinement order, all people held in Federal custody for suspected terrorist activity must have a confinement order and it includes the original confining officer as well as lead investigator. All leads and names derived up to and past this individual is coordinated through their confinement order number to preserve the names, that is why they have to keep the confinement orders. Nobody is going to start that process going without a good reason because their name is attached to it forever.

There is no way for this to be abused because there must first me an active investigation against someone for suspected terrorist involvement. The people putting this tool to use are not on the street, they are far back in the process.

You seem to not understand my point though. What do these investigations entail? Do they need real proof, or not? Hell, I've googled the Anarchist's Cookbook, the Oklahoma City bombing, and 9/11 several times in the past few days. That's a little suspicious, right? Am I a terrorist? More importantly, does that matter to them?
Did you get arrested? You make my point for me kid. Normal curiosity and discussion is not going to flag you, they are way too busy to bother with stuff like that.

Now making over seas telephone calls to terrorist supporting areas, going to training locations, having several meetings with other suspected terrorists, getting or sending money to or from suspicious places. The tings you have to do to get flagged are huge, by the time someone is under full investigation, they already have a lot of info on them they never even knew was collected. If they find a suspected terrorist, they don't arrest them, they follw them, listen to their phone calls, check their emails, watch who they associate with for years sometimes building as large a database as they can off this one person.

If they arrest him and toss him in a cell what do they have? 1 guy? They don't want 1 guy, they want all his fellow terrorists too, and anyone supporting them. Watching and waiting is the best way to try and get his friends too, not tossing him in a cell at the first sign of problem.

Logic Joker, pure logic.
I don't defend how they go about what they do. I don't defend the murder of children. I show no sympathy for them. I'm merely showing an understanding of why they feel the need to do what they do. I can understand why someone thought doing something was a good idea, whether I agree with it or not.
No, you already said their actions were justified, you are defending what they do because "you" agree with their hate of America.


Again, prove that they actually need proof, instead of suspicion. Logic seems to escape you, TJ. You seem to assume that they have to have definitive proof every time, and I've seen nowhere that says this is the case.
Logic my friend, you make the arguement of a child, not a logical adult. Just because you can't see a round Earth, that does not make it flat.

You believe America is evil so that translates in you believing anything America does must also be evil so you ignore basic logis that tells us that these professionals would not risk their lives and careers just to put a nobody in jail. Would you do that Joker? If you were working hard on a taskforce to catch terrorists, would you waste your time with putting just any stranger in a cell? Or would you follow real leads and do a real investigation?

Don't assume these guys are evil Joker, there are lots of things in place to keep them honest but even without that, just basic common sense tells us this is not a problem.

They will go blindly when it involves terrorism. They go with what gets them ratings, and scaring them into thinking terrorists will eat their children gets them those ratings.
So everyone in America is evil but you Joker?

There is no possible way the media will ever follow a Republican Joker, this goes to your lack of maturity and no experience in the real world. The liberal media would rather the world end then agree with a Republican.

You miss the point entirely. We shouldn't be holding people indefinitely without trial, which is what the bill is OK with.
Just because I do not agree with you, that does not mean I do not see the point you are trying to make.

You you there is no difference between a terrorist who wants to kill children and a guy who kills his wife. To you a terrorist offers no extra intensity or denger than any other civil crime out there. I see and understand your views. You even believe the terrorists are justified in their hate and them killing our innocents should not be a big deal because it is all our fault they kill children.


I know all the points you Liberals make as to why we should not treat terrorists poorly.

The problem is your wrong, there is a big difference in the harm a terrorist causes over a guy who kills his wife. The regular civil crime system is not designed for those who commit acts of war, and anyone with a shread of logic would see their actions are those of a group attacking us as a whole, not as individuals 1 against another.



I've never believed 9/11 was an inside job. You keep putting words in my mouth. I'm not a 'radical guy'. The CIA caused the Iranian Hostage Crisis. The US Govt. keeping troops in Saudi Arabia and supporting Israel was a big reason Bin Laden was pissed. We cause our own problems, TJ. Get over it.
That is all propaganda fed to you by the terrorists themselves, we come back to why you believe people who want to kill children for shock value would never lie to you. The CIA saved Afganistan to include Bin Laden, he owed his life to America, there was no reason for him to hate us. Where does he get off telling us we can't have troops in Saudi? The ruling families did not share his beliefs, why not attack the royal families who let it happen instead of America?

If there was any real beef it was not with us, no, his excuses do not hold any truth at all, he was just a sick, power hungry man who used other people to make himself feel good.

Yes, he was brainwashed by a Muslim fanatic. I won't dispute this.
But how do you know? He was educated and looked like any other person in the world. You claim to know what is or is not normal or radical muclim behavior but you are just a kid repeating what the liberals have told you. I gave you the example of Muzzammil Hassan to make the point that those we call 'normal' tranform to radical pretty damn fast. This transformation can only be foundt in large examples inside the Muslim community.

As I said before, I do not believe most Muslims are radical, but even the so called 'normal' Muslims are sometimes pressured to look the other way because of their faith.

We as Infidels will never solve this problem, the best we can hope for is to fight fires. Only the Muslim community can end terrorist acts.
 

timesjoke

Progressive Killer
#37
Still not a Liberal. I never said it wasn't a horrible act. I never said it was okay. I just felt no emotional pull in either direction.
Actually you did say it was okay, you said it was not their fault and it was all our fault. That is saying it is okay. Either their actions are wrong or they are not Joker, you can have it both ways.

Besides, these people were not the elected leaders of any Nation capable of negotiations, no rules of law to bond their words and treaties, they were radicals even in their own Saudi and had no say in what political decisions were made. Why do they feel they even have a right to complain?



It's like you try to be dense.
Nice dodge, can't handle the hard points right?

Except he was abusive and violent for years prior. This wasn't a random instance of him going nuts. He was a bad person, religion had nothing to do with it.
There were recent reports of domestic calls but nothing long term, it was all focused around the fact she wanted to leave him and that is just not allowed in the Muslim world. She insulted him and had to pay the traditional Muslim way.

I'd be ok with you attacking Liberals if you stopped trying to call me one.
Call you what you are, not what you pretend to be. You just attacked all southern people and when I call you out on it, you dodge it.......typical Liberal gehavior.

Yes, they took action so quickly that there were 3 of them. They aren't going through a Dark Ages. They have groups within, just like other religions, that are bad. See Westboro Baptist Church.
See another lie from you. How can you try to compare an idiot tiny church with an actual terrorist network?

I know you are young but you don;t even understand the dark ages comment? Really? I guess you are the product of a purely Liberal education, let me explain for you kid:

The dark ages was more a mindset then anything else, the church and the crown was directly linked and many peopel were manipulated by these forces to do some very ugly things. Many of these acts were purely driven by fanitical attachment to the twisting of religion. Europeans did this, and is is a very dark truth we have to accept. At the same time these same people started to see the flaws in the acts, they took back their faith from those who were manipulating it for their own political gains.


Right now the same thing is happening with Muslims. A fairly large segment of their faith are chasing 'holy war' for their own evil agendas. They lie and manipulate just like the crusades leaders of old. And just like the crusades, the solution to the mess can only come from within. Theri faith was stolen just like Christian faith was stolen.

Except torture is against the Geneva Convention, so...
Do you even know what that is?

I would guess not being as you just said something so incredibly stupid.

The Geneva Cinvention was an agreement between those who signed it dumbass. Go read a book, lol.

Except we already had a process for dealing with them, which is kind of the same process, so why bother to get it on the books?
Because getting things in writing is an important step. When you grow up and get out on your own and start raising your own family you will get the maturity to understand these kinds of things joker.

And the Civil War was an actual war. There is no actual war going on right now, TJ.
Really? What is it that makes a war Joker? If a war can only be between other Countries then the cicil war was not a war either. Just a small internal conflict right?

Is a war defined by who is involved? By that standard these were fellow Americans, not foreigh invaders so it was not a war right?




You obviously have no idea what a war is. Even Obama bombed the shit out of places without ever going to congress to declare war but do you think the places we bombed gave a shit if there was an official proclamation or not? War is two groups fighting to overcome the other in it;s simple form. The group aspect must be there to make it war. Family disputes were at the heart of many of the historic wars so let's look at what is happening now.

A large but loosly associated group of Muslims have worked together and apart with the common goal of hurting America as much as possible. Most claim to desire to kill all Americans and their allies around the world. They strike out at any target they can but if given a choice they go for women and children for the overall shock and large scale fear caused to all Americans and allies. They make demands they have no legal right to make. They are not heads of states or leaders of Nations. In most cases they are even shunned by their own Nations and had to regroup in other places more supportive of their beliefs. There is no real Governing body but a clear shared goal of destruction of all things Infidel.


Sounds like war to me.

One day I'd love to meet this Liberal you keep saying is attacking you. I never said you said that, genius. I was making fun of your ridiculous comparison. L2Reading Comprehension.
It was simplified so even a child couls understand it, I guess even that was over your head.

They just want our troops out of there and for us to stop supporting Israel, because Israel's kind of a dick.
They are dicks because they want to protect their lives? The terrorists promise to kill every man, woman, and child in Israel, you want that?

Who cares what they want, what gies them the right to issue orders? As I said before, they are not elected leaders, they do not represent any Nation, they are thugs who are only using these excuses to feed their sick desire to kill. We can't bow down to terrorist demands because there will never be an end to it Joker.


It is like you going to China and demanding they stop selling stuff to America because it is ruining our lives. You tell China they are manipulating our economy and their meddling is not going to be tolerated. You tell them to stop or you will kill innocents. They do not listen to you so you kill a few thousand civilians. Are you in the right? Do you have the right to make those demands? Do you have a right to kill if they refuse your demands? Is killing their children justified because you feel their Government is intentionally ruining America?


The problem is that we weren't completely isolationist. We kept fucking Japan over, so they got desperate. And who says something like Pearl Harbor wouldn't have happened? If the Japanese would've gotten that desperate, they probably would've figured out where the fleets were that could take them down and do the same exact thing. Hell, we were far more focused on the European Theater than we were Japan until the very end, when we nuked them.
Fucking them over?

Why is it anyone who attacks America has done so for good reason in your eyes? America never attacked Japan, but Japan wanted to take somethign by force they could not get any other way so they attacked us but we were foolish enough to buy their lies and kept our ships an easy target because we believed we were out of reach of harm. We thought ourselves "safe" and learned otherwise.

Is there an idea you CAN grasp?/quote]

More dodging I see. Can't handle being wrong? Getting pissed off?

I believe that if we got out of their countries and left them alone, there would be a good chance they'd keep attacking each other, instead of us. We can be watchful without stationing troops in their countries.
A "good chance"? You bet not your life but the lives of people like the 9/11 victims on a "good chance"?

Here again you show how Liberal you are, I call you Liberal for thse kinds of Liberal comments Joker. Tou again place the blame 100% on America and hold the Terrorists blameless. You believe the poor terrorists were forced to be rabid dog killers by the evil America.


But we still have that same issue, it is not "their" Country. You spent a lot of time proving that many of the 9/11 attackers did not start out in Afganistan so why complain about what is happening there or anywhere else? They have no home, they have no Nations, you even say they are not real Muslims so what gives them the right to dictate what we do in any Country? If they do not represent muslims in any way, shape, or form, then they are just a crazy group that needs to be eliminated so the 'normal' Muslims can move on with their lives.....right?



Where is that Liberal you keep talking about? I think he's putting words in both of our mouths. Oh, no, wait, that's you. BTW, the Straw Man fallacy STILL isn't doing anything for you, old man.



We kill innocents all of the time. It's cute how you think we don't. And they aren't trying to destroy Democracy. Holy shit you've been brainwashed. They aren't trying to destroy our freedoms, you jackass. Get out of your house and talk to a few Muslims, and I promise you if they know anything about the Middle East, they can tell you why the terrorists hate us. And by us, I mean our intrusive government, not the people as a whole.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#38
Actions speak louder than words, everything you say is hate of your Nation and showing support and understanding to those who want to destroy it. You say terrorist acts to kill American children is justified, you can't hate America much more than that.
I've never justified terrorist attacks on children. I'm no longer going to respond to anything where you attack a position I've never had.


You are a Liberal based on your actions, you can say your not all you want and that does not change the fact you are.
Nope.

You keep dodging my point over and over where Bin Laden likes American interference well enough when we saved his life. When you own your life to America, trying to later kill all Americans is a little bit disrespectful don;t you think? They have no actual grounds for complaint when clearly they only exist because of American interference. Seems they want it both ways.
As it turns out, someone can save your life and then do something that pisses you off to the point of taking action against them in some form. Not everything is a black and white absolute, TJ. Just because someone saved my life doesn't mean he can shit on my face while I sleep.

So you feel it is okay for terrorists to kill children if they do not like who we are friends with? Well America did not like some of other people's friends and acted on it, how is that any different to your Liberal mind Joker? So let me get this straight so I know what you are proposing, if any group says they do not like what we do, we should run away scared because they are justified to kill our children if we don't? You believe that is reasonable?
I know Wiki is blacked out until tomorrow, but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Fuck you kid, you asked me to speak on kids being killed off the top of my head and I did, if you wanted to put limitations on it you should have worded your question differently. The point is no matter who the terrorists are, and where they are located, terrorists do things like kill children, how can you align yourself to try and defend their actions as justified Joker?
Except you implied that the terrorist attack was of Muslim origins, which it wasn't. Don't get pissed at me because I called you out. Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Can you tell a radical from a so called "normal" Muslim Joker? Was Muzzammil Hassan a norlam or radical Muslim when he cut his wifes head off for daring to try and divorce him?
I'd say 'radical' at that point. One who wishes to murder another will often seek to find justification in some source or another.

I am not the dumbass who thinks that just because somneone was born in one place, they can't be conditioned and trained in another. Bin Laden was born in Saudi but was the main fighter for Afganistan against the Russians so what is your point? Clearly all these peopel held great allegence to Afganistan and their leader Bin Laden.
My point was that they were born and raised in their respective countries, where the literacy rate was higher than the country you quoted. You're really assuming a lot if you think that an intelligent human being would hire illiterate schmucks to perform a complex plan.

Nope, that is now, at the time of the terrorist attacks it was below 40%, you also have to look how they rate literacy, it is not comparable to American standards, just to let you know. You keep talking about reading books and forget to read yourself.
The literacy rate hasn't been that low in Saudi Arabia in over 20 years. Where did you get your number, and what are your sources for how they judge their literacy rate?

The real issue is recruitment though, almost all of them are illeterate, so easily manipulated by evil men like Bin Laden and the more radical Imams.
Still haven't found proof that the 9/11 hijackers were illiterate. Some of the lower level ones probably were, but I doubt they used them for anything terribly complicated.

You do hate America, every comment you ever make on this forum has been colored with your hate for your own Country.
You claim to have insight into the minds of terrorists but your just a damn kid, did you ever move out of your parents house?
In other news, the price of tea in China is up.

You said before the real world was too difficult for you so you had to stay on mommies tit.
And the price of tea in China is down.

Now suddenly you claim to be a middle east expert and can read the minds of terrorists? You trust terrorists to never lie to you?
And your sources would never lie to you? You sure seem to be SUPER DUPER SURE that whomever is feeding you your bullshit couldn't possibly lie to you.

America put our nose in their business to save their Country, to save their lives, and to provide most of the food the poor was eating, they can't have it both ways. Don't tell us you need us to pay your bills, save your land, and feed your poor and at the same time claim you hate us for meddling........that is just not logical.
Not quite. We gave them weapons to fight our battle for us without our own troops getting dirty. We weren't doing it out of good will.

You are using strawman, not me kid. Can't expect much more just such an immature kid though.
Haha, the fuck are you talking about? 90% of your arguments are you making up a position I don't have so you can pretend you're arguing against me.

Clod? Has that insult resurfaced with you kids? Incredible you kids don;t have any new material so you have to dig up 40 year old insults to toss at people.
How dare I use words other people have used. I'll make sure to refrain from ever using words anybody has ever used ever again.

And you telling the same lie that you are not liberal is also a broken record. Liberal is a definition to describe basic political alignment Joker, you promote things like protecting terrorists who want to destroy America, that is not Conservative my friend.
Strangely, there aren't only two political alignments. Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Lie, and further proof you are a Liberal for telling that lie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

They attacked a suspected terrorist training camp, not a school bus. I have never said innocents do not get killed by all sides, what I said was terrorists prefer to attack children and woman for the shock value. Our troops are not intentionally killing children Joker, and you telling that lie proves how much you have your Country. The problem is terrorists hide around their own innocents so they can get their own people killed for media purposes.
So they accidentally killed children? Seems strange that they'd have enough intelligence to suspect it was a training camp, but not enough to know the inhabitants of it. Kind of an oddly specific chunk of information.

It is all terrorist propaganda they create themselves.
Yes, because nobody would think that they might actually tell us the reason they don't like us, instead of this 'kill the infidels' bullshit.

Yes you are, I see you keep dodging my points with these though, typical Liberal behavior.
If you made a point, I wouldn't dodge it.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#39
I already have kid, over and over I explained the process to you but you blind yourself to the reality, all you are willing to see is stuff that feeds your hate of America, you made up your mind and no amount of reality will sway you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I know you are still a kiid, but try to use a little bit of common sense. The purpose is to catch terrorists trying to kill Amricans, hnow does putting any random person in jail help that goal? You have to remember that these are people like you and me working these jobs and they want to do a good job. So to do as you claim they will do they have to not care if Terrorists kill Americans.
You're naive if you think that this can't be used as a way to lock up Americans they don't like. Someone says they dislike the President? Probably not on the radar. Someone makes a big enough deal about it to get media coverage? Boom, terrorist.

Secondly, there is a confinement order, all people held in Federal custody for suspected terrorist activity must have a confinement order and it includes the original confining officer as well as lead investigator. All leads and names derived up to and past this individual is coordinated through their confinement order number to preserve the names, that is why they have to keep the confinement orders. Nobody is going to start that process going without a good reason because their name is attached to it forever.
Except those in power to do it have a single human being to answer to: the POTUS. I doubt the President takes time out of his schedule to review every single one of those cases.

There is no way for this to be abused because there must first me an active investigation against someone for suspected terrorist involvement. The people putting this tool to use are not on the street, they are far back in the process.
Of course it can be abused. Do you actually know who has the power to use it? The President. And things like this get delegated to a committee specifically for this kind of thing. And that committee has to answer to the guy who's so busy he has to delegate the responsibility.

Did you get arrested? You make my point for me kid. Normal curiosity and discussion is not going to flag you, they are way too busy to bother with stuff like that.
For now.

If they arrest him and toss him in a cell what do they have? 1 guy? They don't want 1 guy, they want all his fellow terrorists too, and anyone supporting them. Watching and waiting is the best way to try and get his friends too, not tossing him in a cell at the first sign of problem.
If you're dealing with actual terrorists and not just enemies of the state, then yes.

No, you already said their actions were justified, you are defending what they do because "you" agree with their hate of America.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Logic my friend, you make the arguement of a child, not a logical adult. Just because you can't see a round Earth, that does not make it flat.
And just because you can't see how easily one could abuse this, doesn't make it not so.

You believe America is evil so that translates in you believing anything America does must also be evil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

so you ignore basic logis that tells us that these professionals would not risk their lives and careers just to put a nobody in jail. Would you do that Joker? If you were working hard on a taskforce to catch terrorists, would you waste your time with putting just any stranger in a cell? Or would you follow real leads and do a real investigation?
For a real terrorist, yes. But that's not what I'm talking about. When they start deciding that people they don't like are terrorists, that's when shit hits the fan.

Don't assume these guys are evil Joker, there are lots of things in place to keep them honest but even without that, just basic common sense tells us this is not a problem.
It's not the task force I'm worried about, it's their bosses.

So everyone in America is evil but you Joker?
Yes, that's totally it. Dumbass.

There is no possible way the media will ever follow a Republican Joker, this goes to your lack of maturity and no experience in the real world. The liberal media would rather the world end then agree with a Republican.
Unless, again, it involves SUPER SCARY TERRORISM!

Just because I do not agree with you, that does not mean I do not see the point you are trying to make.

You you there is no difference between a terrorist who wants to kill children and a guy who kills his wife. To you a terrorist offers no extra intensity or denger than any other civil crime out there. I see and understand your views. You even believe the terrorists are justified in their hate and them killing our innocents should not be a big deal because it is all our fault they kill children.
There is a difference between the two. One killed an adult, one killed several children. The latter is the worse of the two. You have absolutely no understanding of my views because you make ridiculous assumptions and say that they're my opinions. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I know all the points you Liberals make as to why we should not treat terrorists poorly.

The problem is your wrong, there is a big difference in the harm a terrorist causes over a guy who kills his wife. The regular civil crime system is not designed for those who commit acts of war, and anyone with a shread of logic would see their actions are those of a group attacking us as a whole, not as individuals 1 against another.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man You're arguing against a point I never made, TJ.

That is all propaganda fed to you by the terrorists themselves, we come back to why you believe people who want to kill children for shock value would never lie to you. The CIA saved Afganistan to include Bin Laden, he owed his life to America, there was no reason for him to hate us. Where does he get off telling us we can't have troops in Saudi? The ruling families did not share his beliefs, why not attack the royal families who let it happen instead of America?
I never said they wouldn't lie. I'm saying they have no reason to misrepresent their intentions. And I'm guessing his family had good relations with the Saudi ruling families, since his father was a prominent businessman.

But how do you know? He was educated and looked like any other person in the world. You claim to know what is or is not normal or radical muclim behavior but you are just a kid repeating what the liberals have told you. I gave you the example of Muzzammil Hassan to make the point that those we call 'normal' tranform to radical pretty damn fast. This transformation can only be foundt in large examples inside the Muslim community.
Large examples? Cite sources for the "large examples" of transformation.

As I said before, I do not believe most Muslims are radical, but even the so called 'normal' Muslims are sometimes pressured to look the other way because of their faith.
I won't disagree with this. But that makes them bad as people, not the religion. If you're willing to look the other way because of a book written by some jackass several hundred years ago, you're a bad person.

We as Infidels will never solve this problem, the best we can hope for is to fight fires. Only the Muslim community can end terrorist acts.
I will agree with this as well.
 

jokersarewild

Conservative/Liberal Beater
#40
Actually you did say it was okay, you said it was not their fault and it was all our fault. That is saying it is okay. Either their actions are wrong or they are not Joker, you can have it both ways.
Not quite. I said that we aggravated them to the point they thought they needed to take action. The action they took wasn't ok. The reason they thought action was needed (not a specific action, just action in general) was because of things the CIA has done.

Besides, these people were not the elected leaders of any Nation capable of negotiations, no rules of law to bond their words and treaties, they were radicals even in their own Saudi and had no say in what political decisions were made. Why do they feel they even have a right to complain?
How dare they dislike things and have opinions! Those fuckers!

Nice dodge, can't handle the hard points right?
The hard point of "they armed the Mujaheddin for selfish reasons that eventually backfired"?

There were recent reports of domestic calls but nothing long term, it was all focused around the fact she wanted to leave him and that is just not allowed in the Muslim world. She insulted him and had to pay the traditional Muslim way.
Bullshit. He was abusive for 6 years before that. Look it up.

Call you what you are, not what you pretend to be. You just attacked all southern people and when I call you out on it, you dodge it.......typical Liberal gehavior.
So...you're calling me out on insulting a whole group when you do it in the same fucking sentence? It's like you're delusional.

See another lie from you. How can you try to compare an idiot tiny church with an actual terrorist network?
Because Islam didn't create the terrorist network. The terrorist network uses Islam as a front for why they believe they can take actions that take lives, instead of something less murder-y.

I know you are young but you don;t even understand the dark ages comment? Really? I guess you are the product of a purely Liberal education, let me explain for you kid:

The dark ages was more a mindset then anything else, the church and the crown was directly linked and many peopel were manipulated by these forces to do some very ugly things. Many of these acts were purely driven by fanitical attachment to the twisting of religion. Europeans did this, and is is a very dark truth we have to accept. At the same time these same people started to see the flaws in the acts, they took back their faith from those who were manipulating it for their own political gains.

Right now the same thing is happening with Muslims. A fairly large segment of their faith are chasing 'holy war' for their own evil agendas. They lie and manipulate just like the crusades leaders of old. And just like the crusades, the solution to the mess can only come from within. Theri faith was stolen just like Christian faith was stolen.
Actually, I'm pretty sure the solution was the Muslims sending even larger forces and kicking the Christian's asses. Haven't read much on the Crusades as of late, though.

Do you even know what that is?

I would guess not being as you just said something so incredibly stupid.

The Geneva Cinvention was an agreement between those who signed it dumbass. Go read a book, lol.
And what exactly did I say that was incorrect?

Because getting things in writing is an important step. When you grow up and get out on your own and start raising your own family you will get the maturity to understand these kinds of things joker.
Seems like a paper trail for doing something against basic human rights would be a bad thing.

Really? What is it that makes a war Joker? If a war can only be between other Countries then the cicil war was not a war either. Just a small internal conflict right?
War:

Noun-A state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state.

So, to answer your last question, it was an internal conflict, but wasn't small.

Is a war defined by who is involved? By that standard these were fellow Americans, not foreigh invaders so it was not a war right?
Who are we at war with right now? Having a war on Terror is like having a war on Drugs: You can't wage a war on an improper noun. It doesn't work, and it makes you look stupid.

You obviously have no idea what a war is. Even Obama bombed the shit out of places without ever going to congress to declare war but do you think the places we bombed gave a shit if there was an official proclamation or not? War is two groups fighting to overcome the other in it;s simple form. The group aspect must be there to make it war. Family disputes were at the heart of many of the historic wars so let's look at what is happening now.

A large but loosly associated group of Muslims have worked together and apart with the common goal of hurting America as much as possible. Most claim to desire to kill all Americans and their allies around the world. They strike out at any target they can but if given a choice they go for women and children for the overall shock and large scale fear caused to all Americans and allies. They make demands they have no legal right to make. They are not heads of states or leaders of Nations. In most cases they are even shunned by their own Nations and had to regroup in other places more supportive of their beliefs. There is no real Governing body but a clear shared goal of destruction of all things Infidel.


Sounds like war to me.
Most of what you just said is Republican propaganda. Cite sources.

It was simplified so even a child couls understand it, I guess even that was over your head.
Oh darn, you've figured me out!

They are dicks because they want to protect their lives? The terrorists promise to kill every man, woman, and child in Israel, you want that?
So...do you think that Israel's done nothing but good, or are you ignoring their behaviors and policies because it suits your argument?

Who cares what they want, what gies them the right to issue orders? As I said before, they are not elected leaders, they do not represent any Nation, they are thugs who are only using these excuses to feed their sick desire to kill. We can't bow down to terrorist demands because there will never be an end to it Joker.
Or maybe they do have actual reasons, and aren't simply killing for the sake of killing.

It is like you going to China and demanding they stop selling stuff to America because it is ruining our lives. You tell China they are manipulating our economy and their meddling is not going to be tolerated. You tell them to stop or you will kill innocents. They do not listen to you so you kill a few thousand civilians. Are you in the right? Do you have the right to make those demands? Do you have a right to kill if they refuse your demands? Is killing their children justified because you feel their Government is intentionally ruining America?
Killing them isn't justified. But I'm sure there are other things one could do in protest that would work toward getting your objective accomplished. Maybe give the lead paint-covered toys they keep giving us to their children, for example.

Fucking them over?

Why is it anyone who attacks America has done so for good reason in your eyes? America never attacked Japan, but Japan wanted to take somethign by force they could not get any other way so they attacked us but we were foolish enough to buy their lies and kept our ships an easy target because we believed we were out of reach of harm. We thought ourselves "safe" and learned otherwise.
We actually really fucked them over after WW1 and pressured Britain to no longer ally themselves with Japan. Japan pretty much lost its only big allies and any power it could've had because of ties to us/Britain in one fell swoop. By the time the end of WW2 was rolling around, we decided to stop supplying them with oil period (against the President's wishes, btw) and so they got desperate and took the oil fields while bombing us to keep them at bay so they could get the oil they so desperately needed. I never said they did it for a 'good' reason, but they did it for their survival, which is understandable. It was the Hail Mary pass that failed, so to speak.