What the Mega-Mosque at Ground Zero Means to Worldwide Islam

[jokersarewild]

Wanna make a wager that the terrorist monument does not get built on ground zero as planned?

I'll take that bet. I bet that it won't be built on Ground Zero, as it has never been planned to.

Imam Feisal: ........

Imam Feisal also said he blamed America for 9/11

So the CIA didn't train Osama? Hm. Sounds like that could be something one could blame us for.

and he refuses to call groups like Hamas terrorists because he will not take sides.

If you read anything about him, you'd understand why.

He is exactly why these terrorists exist in the world, because so called "moderate" Muslims refuse to directly stand up against them. If this is the best "moderate" America can find then what about all the other so called "moderates" who are not as good as this guy?

No, actually, they aren't the reason. But believe what you will.

And yes hugo, I do believe the Government, on some level should stop this terrorist monument from being built.

*TRANSLATION*

"I believe the Government should take away their rights because I don't like them, and don't believe the Constitution should matter."

As I already pointed out, thing like eminent domain have been used to take away private property and hand it to another person millions of times. If taking away land to give it to someone else like Donald Trump is considered reasonable, helping one man get more millions in this way is okay, why is it wrong to follow the will of the people and block the construction of this terrorist monument?

Because your "will" has nothing to do with a building being built in New York.

Ever hear the term "Al-Taqiyah" hugo, how about Builder and Joker, or even Phreakwars?

So that means they're all doing it? Really?

Muslims have been masters at infiltration and counterintelligence long before America was even thought of. As I keep saying, you guys operate under the assumption that terrorists and such are honest about their intentions and why they kill babies. We are infidels, any form of lie or attack is allowed and even commanded under their faith.

And why do you think they aren't honest about it?

 

[IWS]

Steve Golding 9-11-01 ? His account of that day.by Steve Golding?

The following is the accounts of September 11, 2001 as seen through the eyes of Steve Golding as he pulled up to work that morning in the Financial District below the World Trade Center. Our deepest condolences go out to Steve and his friends who have suffered such a tragic loss. To see their friends die before them by such a shocking event. Please tell everyone you know they should read this.

OK, here goes. I?ve worked in the city (Manhattan) my entire adult career. I worked for Frank B. Hall Insurance Brokers in the Financial District; the former HQ of TWA in Midtown Manhattan before the airline was taken over by Ichan; and for the Helmsley Organization in Midtown before moving to their Chelsea location. I?ve worked hard and climbed the ladder so to speak. For the last 3 years I have been driving into work, having attained a perk?my own reserved parking space.

I live in Brooklyn. Born and bred. Having paid my dues, I do not start work until 10 AM every day now. And so it was on September 11th. I had just come out of the Battery Tunnel and made my left hand turn onto the West Side Highway and rolled up to the second stop light. I was running a little late. The light turned green and I started to go, passing the twin towers on my right hand side. In Front of the Trade Center Marriott. Just as I got in front of them, the ground shook and then I heard an explosion. I thought to myself what the hell was that and I checked my review to see if it was a gas pipe that exploded. Then debris started raining down on my car.

I gunned it and got about a block and a half away before all the emergency vehicles started coming; many of them coming toward me the wrong way. Traffic snarled. I knew that I wasn?t going to get any further. I pulled off the road and I took the car to a small garage and left it there. I walked back to the West Side Highway because its a main artery with a straight shot to my job at 23rd & 5th.

I look back toward the twin towers. There was smoke rising from one of the towers. I walked toward it, in disbelief. People were jumping. A lot of people were jumping. I saw some of them land. I felt sick. I thought some dimwit had run either a helicopter or small plane into the twin towers. I saw the second plane coming. It never dawned on me he was going the wrong way. I thought to myself that he was flying too low and wondered why. Then he turned into the second tower. He made his wings go one way and then the other. He went through it. The nose stuck through the other side for a nanosecond before you saw the biggest explosion that you would ever see. You instantly knew you were under attack. This was no accident. This was no dimwit. This was inhuman. You were in total denial. It was not happening. I was home, asleep, and having some sick dream.

I made it up to the site in minutes to see if I could help. A cop told me if I wanted to truly help, I would move north, away from the scene. He was scared but calm. I started away. But every few feet I would turn and look, not believing it really happened. I started listening to peoples radios that were still in their cars, or others who had transistor radios.

The South Tower, the second one hit, came down. I just stood there for a minute, an hour, a day. My mind was saying get the hell out of there, but my mind wasn?t communicating with the rest of me. It was like a movie. A bad one at that. It looked like the whole top of the building slid a little and then someone turned on a faucet and debris started pouring out of it as it slowly disappeared.

Plumes of smoke/debris were coming at me. Huge. Never saw anything like it. I took off. I went down one road and there was that plume coming straight for me, I turned and went another way but it was still coming at me. From all ends. I must?ve turned down a small alley-like-road where the buildings stood end-to-end because no matter what door I tried to seek shelter, it was locked. The Plume was overtaking me.

There was an older lady screaming in the middle of this alley/street and the monster was about to get her. I grabbed her and shoved her to the back end of a DHL van that was parked. I threw my suit jacket over her head. ?Lady, we?re gonna be alright. Take 3 deep breaths and hold it.? I curled up by the Van. The debris hit.

It was humid, sticky, hot. It was white-grey-black in less time than it takes to read this line. I was holding my breath but I hadn?t closed my eyes. They felt like fine grade steel wool, 0000 strength were in them. I couldn?t see. I had my hands out but couldn?t see them. I must?ve looked like I was imitating Helen Keller. I couldn?t hold my breath anymore. I let it out and gasped for breath. My mouth was immediately filled with the foulest tasting stuff you couldn?t ever imagine. For the moment I couldn?t breath. I threw up. Cleared my mouth and took another breath. I threw up again and then pulled my shirt over my face and then breathed. I thought I was going to have a heart attack. Or suffocate. For a long while I just leaned there, trying to regain some composure.

I kept blinking my eyes. My vision was blurred but I started to be able to see through the darkness and I felt my way around. The lady was gone. So was my jacket. I laughed. It was a new suit. Oh well. maybe it helped her live. I hope so.

I was pushed this way and that way by cops, fireman, people with colorful vests on. I was walking through body parts. Shoes with feet still in them. Arms, clumps of matter. The paper was everywhere, more than I have ever seen and I?ve been to my share of ticker tape parades in this city.

I don?t know when the north tower came down. I just know that it did by the sound and the activity and the second plume of debris. I was covered in ash. It didn?t dawn on me until later that some of the stuff I was covered in was the remains of incinerated bodies. I have showered many, many times trying to get clean again. The thought that some of the hijackers remains covered me is more for me to be able to bear.

I got down to Broadway, near City Hall but not quite on Park Row. There?s a park attached to City Hall. It?s about 3 blocks from the twin towers. I got near the tip of that park when I was grabbed by a female EMT. She kept screaming at me to look at her. She had a flashlight and was trying to put it to my eyes. She was wearing a mask. She washed my eyes out. Her partner took tweezers and while she held my head he removed stuff from my eyes. My left eye was blood red. My right eye was almost swollen shut, but I didn?t know it. I don?t know if they used saline or water but it stung like hell whatever they used. Very much like one of the pictures except that there was no ambulance there; they were just working. I don?t even know where they kept their supplies.

They worked on me for a few minutes or a year. I don?t know which. After each time they worked on me, they would shine the light and ask me to tell them how many fingers they had and who was the President. I told them they each had 10 and the President of what? They said it?s good I had a sense of humor but that they needed to know what I could see. How many fingers were they holding up. I got it wrong the first couple of times and they went back to work on me. My eyes now started to feel a little better but stung like hell. They felt like sandpaper instead of steel wool. When I got both questions right, they told me to get to NYU Hospital or if I was feeling up to it my own doctor. They gave me a bottle of water. I left.

I made it to my office but scared the hell out of everyone there. I looked like I was badly injured. I washed some of the stuff off my face but it started to cake into mud. I had to get home. I left. Manhattan was closed down. There were thousands upon thousands of people in the streets but there was no subway, no bus. My car was in a garage that might no longer be standing for all I knew. I followed the crowd, helping some who were giving up and just sitting there. We managed to come out of the cloud that was covering the Brooklyn Bridge.

When we got out of the cloud we stopped to look back and could see nothing. A photographer tried to snap my picture as I leaned against one of the steel cables of the Brooklyn Bridge, lighting a cigarette believe it or not, and looking back toward Manhattan. I slapped his camera away and it fell off the bridge. He didn?t even curse me out. I mumbled sorry and I moved on.

I got into downtown Brooklyn. Trying to make the subway was useless because hundreds of thousands of people were going into the subway. I knew it would be chaotic. I walked further downtown and a gypsy cab beeped his horn. As in transit strikes, I asked how much to go to Sheepshead Bay, maybe 15 miles away. 140.00. Deal.

I got home and looked in the full length mirror. I looked scary. The thought crossed my mind that had I been the cabdriver I wouldn?t have picked me up and I certainly wouldn?t think that I had the 140.00. I wasn?t even mad at him. I took a shower. Long. Hot. I scrubbed myself. I let the water run on my eyes. The stinging felt great.

I turned on the news. I grabbed a drink. A stiff one. Why did they do this to us? My phone rang and it was family to make sure that I was OK. I could not make calls. I felt very isolated. I listened to the news almost all night. I caught a couple hours of sleep and drove into work the next day using my nephews car. I didn?t get into work until noon.

I started tallying the friends that I had at the trade center. 16, 17, 18? 30. My cousin. As strange as it sounds, I was able to make some calls from my office. I called my cousin Charlie?s house. Carol told me she hadn?t heard from him since right after the first plane hit. He called to tell her that some idiot ran a plan into the tower and that he was evacuating. He?d call her when he got out. That call never came. He had worked for Euro Traders.

The same with my friend Elkin. (His picture is in the montage.) A friend of Elkin?s called his own wife. She heard Elkin?s voice in the background. He was saying, ?We have to punch through this wall; we can?t get through the door. Make sure she calls Cella to tell her I?m OK and getting the hell outta here.? His friends wife called Cella and relayed the information. No other call came. He worked for Carr Futures and he leaves his wife and 3 year old daughter Nicole. He loved being a daddy.

Over the next few days things were very chaotic. That guardsman that you see in the montage with his M-16 pointed to the ground, he was stationed at 23rd and 5th which is my building. For the first few days you could not go further south than 23rd Street. Then they moved it to 14th Street. You look down the block and you see the shell of the twin towers (the photo with the arrow pointing to the shell). Since I have dealt with the government on the POW/MIA (Prisoner of War/Missing In Action) issue for the last 30 years, my aunt and uncle decided that I was the one who would deal with the city on Charlie. I brought his toothbrush and hairbrush to the Armory and filled out the 8 page questionnaire.

Then I found that more friends, firefighters, had been taken as well. My friend Bronco had come to my office a week before the attack. He was wearing this fire-retardant sweat shirt and I told him it was a cool shirt. The Thursday before the attack, he came back to my office and tossed a shirt at me. Just like his with my name on it. He was lost on Tuesday. I haven?t been able to wear that shirt yet.

My sister?s kids swim in Ray?s pool and his kids swim in my sister?s pool. About 8 years ago they had a block party that I attended. Ray was the organizer of the block party. He and I hit it off. From that time on whenever it was time to plan the block party he would always call Terry and ask her ?What?s your brothers schedule,? and would plan it accordingly. When our own homegrown terrorist McVeigh had bombed the OKC building, I knew that Ray went with the NYC contingent to help. What I hadn?t known was his last name. Downey. He wasn?t just one of the guys that went, he led them. He was a Battalion Chief and I didn?t know that that Ray was the Ray Downey that they flashed all over the news until I saw his photo.

I was going to Charlie?s house almost every day and his kids, Stephen and Emily (6-8) would ask me if I was going to bring daddy home. It broke my heart. The following Sunday I went to Chelsea Piers and told the person in charge of the volunteers over there that they had to let me do something because I was going crazy at Charlie?s house. I ended up giving food to the rescuers. At one point in the middle of the night I took a break. I went toward the water and looked back toward the smoke that still was billowing from the trade center. I lit a cigarette.

A firefighter came and stood next to me but I hadn?t noticed him until he said, ?You got that 10,000 yard stare going on.? (A reference to those in a warzone.) We started talking. After a while he asked me if I wanted to go down to ground zero. I told him that my badge (color coded) would be spotted and they wouldn?t let me further. He took off his coat and draped it around me and then handed me his helmet. We walked down together. Seeing it, I don?t know how I possibly survived.

The fires burned for 20 days at full force. The city was covered in smoke and ash. The smell has hung over us to the point that we are almost used to it now. And part of that smell was incinerated bodies.

As the war on terrorism started, I knew that the focus would change from responding to an unwarranted attack on freedom to those who believe that the United States is using this as a way of controlling oil. In fact, you wouldn?t believe some of the e-mail I am getting. I knew that American resolve may wain in the face of indigenous Afghani suffering and I knew that I had to create something to help sustain our resolve. I built the first draft of my memorial on Charlie?s computer. Some of the language I edited out when I started getting e-mail from kids.

And let?s talk about that for a moment. 8,000 children in grades pre-K to 5 had to be evacuated from schools in the shadows of the twin towers. Another 6,000 JHS kids, grade 6-8. Another 15,000 grades 9-12. I don?t have the data on college. However, I can tell you that the Board of Education claims that 10,000 public school kids lost one or both parents. There?s no data on the private or parochial school kids. So how many of those that had to be evacuated and bore witness to the attack went home to be comforted by their parents to find that one or both of them died in the attack?

My personal death toll reached 1 cousin, 36 friends. Of them, 20 are ?missing.? Pulverized or incinerated. My hope is that they never knew what hit them. I know that Charlie did and I know that Elkin did. We buried a piece of Elkin?s jawbone. Charlie has never been found. We have to live with their horror and think about their last thoughts as they fought to find a way out of that hell. This has come close to breaking me and I am usually a strong individual. For the last 7 weeks I have been going to funerals and memorials. I just got back from the Memorial at Ground Zero. I am thinking that this should be my last for my own sanity.

I still have that sensation of shaking inside. My hands are steady and I am still seething, still angry and still hurt. I suppose with time that sensation of shaking will subside because I know, also, that we will overcome this blow that we took. But I don?t want to overcome it to the point that we forget. Overcome it, but not forget it. And that?s the whole reason why I did the page and continue to maintain it.

And that?s my story. As much of it as I can tell or as much as I care to tell. There are images that I will never forget; the husband and wife holding hands as they jumped into oblivion, the other jumpers. The guy that was shimmying down the grid used by the window washing apparatus, we were all cheering him and then some debris hit him and he fell headfirst. He?s one of the pictures, hands behind his back. I only hope whatever hit him knocked him out first. Those that jumped turning not to flesh and blood but grey-brown matter. The plane going into the building and being swallowed. The tower coming down as if someone turned on a faucet and drained it from existence. The emergency personnel running, driving, dashing up to and into the World Trade Center while the rest of us were doing everything we could to get away. Look at the picture of the lone firefighter running up the stairs while a sea of people were going down.

I guess we should be thankful that more than 30,000 people inside the buildings were saved. Another 15 ? 20,000 saved from the other buildings that came down. A 57 story building also came down, but you hardly heard about it. And there were the hundreds of thousands of us on the ground that surely would have perished had those buildings fallen over rather than imploded straight down. Like I said, I guess we should be grateful, but all I feel is numb and seething and anger and hurt all at the same time.

Every day when I get to work, I look where the twin towers used to stand proud, magnificently thinking that any moment I will wake up from this horrible dream and we will be back on September 11th.

With the anthrax scare going on, I know that our lives have been forever changed. So in a way, those bastards did what they hoped to do. And now that they got our attention, let?s hope our resolve is sustained for the long and difficult road ahead. Terrorism must be wiped off the face of this planet.

And there it is.

Steve

http://iowntheworld.com/blog/?p=34944

 

[Builder]

Wanna make a wager that the terrorist monument does not get built on ground zero as planned?

More misinformed ranting, TJ?

It's two blocks away and it's no monument.

 

[Times]

I'll take that bet. I bet that it won't be built on Ground Zero, as it has never been planned to.

Nice word play but you know what the wager is, I wager that this mosque will not be built on ground zero "as planned" (for the progressives that means where it is planned to built right now).

What will you like to bet? We can use IWS as the verification of the bet, send him the paypal money, let's put your money where your mouth is Joker.

So the CIA didn't train Osama? Hm. Sounds like that could be something one could blame us for.

What does that have to do with anything?

I was trained by the US Army to kill people, but do I run around targeting innocent children for shock value? The CIA also saved Afganistan, without American help, OBL and all of Afganistan would have been crushed, and do you think the Russians would have stopped there?

America did not make OBL the killer of innocents, they trained him to fight other soldiers, the transformation from soldier to terrorist was his own doing and not the fault of America.

If you read anything about him, you'd understand why.

He "claims" it is because he wants to remain 'neutral' with all sides, I have read a lot about this radical imam, but that is exactly the point, if he refuses to take sides, and other Muslims learn from his example and also desire to stay neutral, that is the real problem, these so called "moderates" are not taking sides when they should be taking sides.

Terrorists cannot be reasoned with, what makes these idiots believe they can reason with someone who is willing to intentionaly kill children?

Do you believe a guy who gladly kills children can be trusted Joker?

The way to bring peace is to toss aside the radicals, diminish them and refuse to give into their demands, this imam is actually making the terrorist situation worse by helping the terrorists to feel legitimate and respected by the general Muslim world.

No, actually, they aren't the reason. But believe what you will.

I believe what is logical, why would the terrorists change or stop their actions when people like this imam show them respect and acceptance? The terrorists need to be isolated and shunned, not respected.

*TRANSLATION*

"I believe the Government should take away their rights because I don't like them, and don't believe the Constitution should matter."

You can put words into my mouth all you want but as I already pointed out, we give people like Donald Trump free land all the time by taking it away from other Americans. If that is not unconstitutional, then blocking a terrorist monument on ground zero is not either.

They don't have the right to build anything they want anwhere they want, I also already pointed out that the Government blocks the opening of things like strip clubs all the time because of community concern. This terrorist monument will be way more offensive than a strip club so it is reasonable to block it's construction.

Because your "will" has nothing to do with a building being built in New York.

Sure it does, New York is part of America and the attacks on New York were a purely American experience just like Pearl Harbor. Americans were murdered by the same kinds of friends as this imam loves to hang out with, and being as he is still hiding the source of the money being used to build the mosque, I would bet something like this was plannned from the beginning.

As an American I have a right not to support the building of a terrorist monument on the site of a muslim attack on america.

Just because the attack did not mean anything to you, do not believe all Americans are as disconnected to their Country as you are.

So that means they're all doing it? Really?

Maybe, maybe not, the point is they could be and people like you are part of the problem. Your disconnected from your own Country and you want to trust those who have never earned that trust over your own Country.

"Al-Taqiyah" is very real my friend, and the reason it has worked so well for the Muslims is because they are masters at it. They use people like you to help them, willing discontents in our own society are the bread and butter for "Al-Taqiyah".

And why do you think they aren't honest about it?

Not honest about "Al-Taqiyah"? That would sort of defeat the purpose right?

Pretending to be "moderate" and even pretending to not be Muslim is actually part of the process, go read up on "Al-Taqiyah" and maybe you will see why people like OBL told those lies about what their motivations were, maybe not, you seem a tad too brainwashed to really be able to understand the complexities of "Al-Taqiyah".

**********************

Hi Builder, the events of 9/11 were wide spread and just like any explosion, the specific point of detionation is not the only spot that becomes part of the event. This proposed site for the terrorist monument was involved in the 9/11 event and parts of an airplane were recovered from it, so yes, this site is part of ground zero to all Americans who are connected to their Country and not a discontent as most progressives are discontent.

The Mosque will be a shining beacon for all radical Islam that they can succeed, they can hurt America with hard work and sacrifice. Every follower of Islam will know that terrorist actions are rewarded even in this life with monuments to their sacrifice and myrtodom.

 

[jokersarewild]

\

Nice word play but you know what the wager is, I wager that this mosque will not be built on ground zero "as planned" (for the progressives that means where it is planned to built right now).

What will you like to bet? We can use IWS as the verification of the bet, send him the paypal money, let's put your money where your mouth is Joker.

Well, since I already won, it's too late to bet.

What does that have to do with anything?

He wasn't exactly a great guy BEFORE we did that.

He's also the son of one of the wealthiest people in Saudi Arabia. He has been anti-US for many, many years.

I was trained by the US Army to kill people, but do I run around targeting innocent children for shock value? The CIA also saved Afganistan, without American help, OBL and all of Afganistan would have been crushed, and do you think the Russians would have stopped there?

Something fun I learned about researching the CIA-Osama controversy: Assume that we didn't train Osama. He actually was a Saudi, and the CIA had no reason to recruit him for the fight against Russia anyway. He was operating independently at that point, funding himself. So he had no reason to thank us. He's hated us since before that.

And yes, I know I refuted my own point about us training him.

America did not make OBL the killer of innocents, they trained him to fight other soldiers, the transformation from soldier to terrorist was his own doing and not the fault of America.

He's always been a terrorist.

If you read anything about him, you'd understand why.

He "claims" it is because he wants to remain 'neutral' with all sides, I have read a lot about this radical imam, but that is exactly the point, if he refuses to take sides, and other Muslims learn from his example and also desire to stay neutral, that is the real problem, these so called "moderates" are not taking sides when they should be taking sides.

Terrorists cannot be reasoned with, what makes these idiots believe they can reason with someone who is willing to intentionaly kill children?

He tries to remain neutral so he can hope to bring about a peace, as one would expect.

Do you believe a guy who gladly kills children can be trusted Joker?

With what? He might pay his loans on time. Might not have credit card debt. And I'm sure he would deliver if I paid him to kill my neighbor's children.

However, the Imam is not a child killer, so your point has no merit in your argument against him.

The way to bring peace is to toss aside the radicals, diminish them and refuse to give into their demands, this imam is actually making the terrorist situation worse by helping the terrorists to feel legitimate and respected by the general Muslim world.

He has said that targeting civilians is wrong. Anybody who targets them is wrong.

No, actually, they aren't the reason. But believe what you will.

I believe what is logical, why would the terrorists change or stop their actions when people like this imam show them respect and acceptance? The terrorists need to be isolated and shunned, not respected.

How does he show them respect?

*TRANSLATION*

"I believe the Government should take away their rights because I don't like them, and don't believe the Constitution should matter."

You can put words into my mouth all you want but as I already pointed out, we give people like Donald Trump free land all the time by taking it away from other Americans. If that is not unconstitutional, then blocking a terrorist monument on ground zero is not either.

No, no, that's basically what you were getting at. And Donald Trump doesn't have my land.

They don't have the right to build anything they want anwhere they want, I also already pointed out that the Government blocks the opening of things like strip clubs all the time because of community concern. This terrorist monument will be way more offensive than a strip club so it is reasonable to block it's construction.

Well, they are doing nothing illegal. And the community center really isn't that big of a deal.

Because your "will" has nothing to do with a building being built in New York.

Sure it does, New York is part of America and the attacks on New York were a purely American experience just like Pearl Harbor. Americans were murdered by the same kinds of friends as this imam loves to hang out with, and being as he is still hiding the source of the money being used to build the mosque, I would bet something like this was plannned from the beginning.

No, really, your opinion doesn't matter in New York. I'm glad you feel empathy for 9/11. But a building not actually being built on Ground Zero has no impact on your life whatsoever. And that's why your opinion doesn't matter there. Only the locals. Which you aren't.

As an American I have a right not to support the building of a terrorist monument on the site of a muslim attack on america.

It's not on the site of a Muslim attack on America, so you've won.

Just because the attack did not mean anything to you, do not believe all Americans are as disconnected to their Country as you are.

No, it has nothing to do with that. As it turns out, your adverse reaction sounds to me like the terrorists won. They got you to hate Islam, which fuels their rhetoric to recruit people to attack us. My acceptance of the religion doesn't fuel their fires. Funny, huh?

Maybe, maybe not, the point is they could be and people like you are part of the problem. Your disconnected from your own Country and you want to trust those who have never earned that trust over your own Country.

Yes, I'm putting the freedoms America provides over your hatred of people because of their religion. What a bad person I must be.

 

[jokersarewild]

(continued from last post...)

"Al-Taqiyah" is very real my friend, and the reason it has worked so well for the Muslims is because they are masters at it. They use people like you to help them, willing discontents in our own society are the bread and butter for "Al-Taqiyah".

Are you content with our society? The fact that you have such strong opinions on things would say you aren't. I know I'm not content with our society. But there are worse. I have freedoms, and I'm ok with that. So no, not people "like me".

And why do you think they aren't honest about it?

Not honest about "Al-Taqiyah"? That would sort of defeat the purpose right?

Assuming that every Muslim in the world is deceptive, sure. But assuming that those who aren't radicals don't, or even assuming 99% don't, then you have no case. And if every Muslim in the world does, then we're ****ed. 1.6 billion people plan to kill us.

Pretending to be "moderate" and even pretending to not be Muslim is actually part of the process, go read up on "Al-Taqiyah" and maybe you will see why people like OBL told those lies about what their motivations were, maybe not, you seem a tad too brainwashed to really be able to understand the complexities of "Al-Taqiyah".

Brainwashed by who? Me being brainwashed would have nothing to do with it anyway. But why do you assume that every Muslim does it? Do Jews stone people who don't worship their God? Do Christians keep holy the Sabbath (Which is Saturday, not Sunday)? No, they don't. And assuming that everyone in the world, or even people of a certain religion, follow said religion to a "T" is so far beyond incorrect assumption it's mindblowing.

Also, it's a Shi-ite belief. They use it to hide from the Sunni prosecution. So it's only a certain facet of the religion that practices it anyway (although some Sunnis do, but the majority say its practice is outwardly denying faith in God).

So no, not all of them practice it. Unless we just listen to you and assume they all lie.

 

[hugo]

The reason we have a Constitution is to prevent the "will of the people" i.e. the majority from oppressing minorities.

The fact that eminent domain has already been sadly misused does not mean that misuse should spread.

What seperates our nation from others is the Constitution. Every time you weaken it the fascists and socialists win.

 

[jokersarewild]

The reason we have a Constitution is to prevent the "will of the people" i.e. the majority from oppressing minorities.

The fact that eminent domain has already been sadly misused does not mean that misuse should spread.

What seperates our nation from others is the Constitution. Every time you weaken it the fascists and socialists win.

Times called me a socialist. So every time he says the government should abandon the principles it was built on, I win? Sweet! This whole debate has been won by me this whole time!

 

[hugo]

Just watched Rauf interviewed on Larry King. He condemned Hamas. He seems like a man who sincerely wants peace.

 

[jokersarewild]

That's what I've gotten from hearing about him/reading his interviews.

 

[Times]

Well, since I already won, it's too late to bet.

If your going to act like a child I will treat you as one. The wager is easy to understand even by a 5 year old, if your having to resort to this kind of garbage kid, your prove you already lost the arguement.

So either man up and put your money where your mouth is or keep acting like a child.

He wasn't exactly a great guy BEFORE we did that.

He's also the son of one of the wealthiest people in Saudi Arabia. He has been anti-US for many, many years.

And how is any of that America's fault? Do you think he was anti-us when he accepted out help to fight off the Russians? He fell in love with the power, many leaders of men fall in love with the ability to command death. America could not have known that helping Afganistan fight off the Russians would have created a terrorist like OBL.

Something fun I learned about researching the CIA-Osama controversy: Assume that we didn't train Osama. He actually was a Saudi, and the CIA had no reason to recruit him for the fight against Russia anyway. He was operating independently at that point, funding himself. So he had no reason to thank us. He's hated us since before that.

And yes, I know I refuted my own point about us training him.

We did help train some troops and such as well as provide lots of other help like weapons and such, but you dodged my question, why is it you only want to claim America did bad things but you ignore the greater good that America helped to save millions of lives in Afganistan? Why is it you only spout the propaganda offered by the terrorists as excuses but you refuse to give credit to the good America has done?

He's always been a terrorist.

Again, stop being a child, that was a very stupid thing to claim, for good or bad he was the only person capable of bringing enough men together to fight as a unified force against the Russians we could help. The alternative was to let millions of Afganistan people die, do you think that was what we should have done?

And again, don't forget that the Russians would not have stopped there.

This was one of the battlefields of the cold war Joker, and one of the reasons we won that war, you have to look at the broader picture before you condemn America.

He tries to remain neutral so he can hope to bring about a peace, as one would expect.

You can't possibly be that nieve. If your going to discuss these things at least educate yourself as to why negotiations with terrorists is impossible. First of all, they do not have one governing body, even Hezbollah has a constantly revolving leadership and when one agrees with a thing, someone else does not agree and refuses to honor the deal.

Making peace with one terrorist does nothing to sway another terrorist, in fact many times the other terrorists will intentionally increase their activities to prove those in the deals have no power over them.

We can only have honest negotiations with nations and countries that have a basis in laws, have a binding ability to set policy and a power to enforce those agreements. Nobody this imam is trying to keep the peach with has the power to enforce those agreements. So the refusal to call a terrorist a terrorist is simply counterproductive and it instead allows each of these individual splinters to feel legitimate because guys like this imam will treat them as heads of state instead of the monsters they really are.

With what? He might pay his loans on time. Might not have credit card debt. And I'm sure he would deliver if I paid him to kill my neighbor's children.

However, the Imam is not a child killer, so your point has no merit in your argument against him.

You dodged the question, try to pay attention this time.

Do you trust the word of people who gladly target children?

When these terrorists make claims as to "why" they do what they do people like you have to trust they are being honest about their motives and I wonder why you trust them to tell the truth when they have demonstrated they are not trustworthy. There is no honor in a man who will gut a child just for shock value. If they will gut a child, they will lie Joker.

He has said that targeting civilians is wrong. Anybody who targets them is wrong.

But he refuses to call them terrorists. Actions speak louder than words joker, this imam visits these terrorists ans shows them respect, he treats them as good and respectable people. If he truly believed these terrorists were bad people, he would shun them and refuse to deal with them, and if all the Muslim world would do this the terrorist problem would almost completely end overnight.

These terrorists still want the acceptance of the general Muslim world, and this imam is giving them that acceptance

How does he show them respect?

By treating them like heads of state instead of treating them like the terrorists they are.

If you met someone you knew killed hundreds of babies, would you shake their hand, have polite conversation, eat dinner and be their friend? Or would you shun them and stay away from them? Would you have the courage to maybe stand up to them and say they were doing wrong? We are talking about mass killers Joker.

No, no, that's basically what you were getting at. And Donald Trump doesn't have my land.

What, I have no idea what your trying to say. Either it is unconstutional or it is not for the Government to take away land from a private person. If it is okay to do it for one reason, then it is okay to do it for another. We have a Representative democracy where our elected officials are to represent us, not their own political correct agendas.

Well, they are doing nothing illegal. And the community center really isn't that big of a deal.

I never said they were doing anything illegal, a strip club owner is not doing anything illegal either but our Government sometimes does block the construction of a strip club under moral issues all the time. The mosque on ground zero is no big deal "TO YOU" and I support your right as an American to not care about the 9/11 attacks, but you don't speak for all americans and most of us do care about the idea of building a terrorist monument on ground zero.

No, really, your opinion doesn't matter in New York. I'm glad you feel empathy for 9/11. But a building not actually being built on Ground Zero has no impact on your life whatsoever. And that's why your opinion doesn't matter there. Only the locals. Which you aren't.

I say again, it is your right to not be connected in any way to your Country, but it is my right as an American to be very concerned about attacks on this Nation. We were attacked because of the more radical elements of Islam that their own moderates refuse to condemn. People like this imam even hangsout with them and treat terrorists as heads of state. Terrorists do not deserve any respect and showing them respect adds to their belief they are doing good things under their religion.

Building a terrorist monument on ground zero definately would impact my life because it would further degrade America and force it further into the pit of dispair blind political correctness always leads to. This time it is a mosque at ground zero, then what? Where do we draw a line and say "enough is enough"?

It's not on the site of a Muslim attack on America, so you've won.

Stop being an infant. The entire area is ground zero. In fact, all of New York was severely impacted by the attacks. This was not just an attack on two buildings Joker, this was an attack on Americans as a people. If you choose to brainwash yourself into believing this was just two buildings attacked then there is nothing I can do about that, self-delusion is very comon with the very young and the progressives but you can't force people like me to share in your delusions.

No, it has nothing to do with that. As it turns out, your adverse reaction sounds to me like the terrorists won. They got you to hate Islam, which fuels their rhetoric to recruit people to attack us. My acceptance of the religion doesn't fuel their fires. Funny, huh?

The appeasement theory was tried for a long time, and it has failed every time. Clinton was about as soft on Muslims as you could ever find in a past President and the 9/11 attackers were here during his entire Presidency training for 9/11. 9/11 was the result of being soft and showing weakness, like the weakness you show.

Everone claimed the more agressive stance of Bush would incite and anger the Muslims to attack us more but it had the exact opposite effect, they backed off and showed America more respect, no new attacks, now with another weak President who is playing the appeasement card with the Muslims we have more terrorist attacks again.

Any idiot should be able to see appeasement and going soft only invites attacks. The terrorists are going to exist no matter what us infidels do, because they can't possibly hate us more then they already do. The only thing that can stop the terrorists are fellow Muslims standing up against them.

Yes, I'm putting the freedoms America provides over your hatred of people because of their religion. What a bad person I must be.

No, it has nothing to do with their religion, everything I am against is their actions. Killing babies is not okay just because they hide behind the Islamic faith Joker. You want to give them all a free pass for refusing to fight their own terrorist elements, I am not. The second peopel like this imam starts to shun the terrorists I will be there standing next to them holding their hand sharing in their work.

But it is "THEIR" work to do.

 

[Times]

Are you content with our society? The fact that you have such strong opinions on things would say you aren't. I know I'm not content with our society. But there are worse. I have freedoms, and I'm ok with that. So no, not people "like me".

And part of our freedoms is to stand up for moral possitions Joker. We are supposed to be creating a society to be proud of. We are not robots Joker, we are human being and the things that give us the greatest pleasures in life are directly connected to our enotional side. Even beautiful music can generate an emotional reaction so this is what it really means to be human.

I am very content with being an American, I get upset or irritated when people try to superimpose political correctness over the top of the American dream. You say your content, and it clearly shows in your being willing to believe terrorists are good and trustworthy people and those who hang out with those terrorists are also trustworthy.

Assuming that every Muslim in the world is deceptive, sure. But assuming that those who aren't radicals don't, or even assuming 99% don't, then you have no case. And if every Muslim in the world does, then we're ****ed. 1.6 billion people plan to kill us.

That is where your missing the point. It does not take all Muslims to be involved for this to work, it is already working, your defending them for their refusal to stand united against their terrorist elements. They have you doing part of their "Al-Taqiyah" work for them, now ain't that grand....

Brainwashed by who? Me being brainwashed would have nothing to do with it anyway.

Your the product of a severely progressive school system where America is always the 'bad guy' and we should feel guilty for being strong, feel guilty for our success, feel guilty that even our very poor live 100 times better than the average person in a Muslim governed Nation.

But why do you assume that every Muslim does it? Do Jews stone people who don't worship their God? Do Christians keep holy the Sabbath (Which is Saturday, not Sunday)? No, they don't. And assuming that everyone in the world, or even people of a certain religion, follow said religion to a "T" is so far beyond incorrect assumption it's mindblowing.

And where did I ever say they all do "it"?

Your putting words in my mouth, what I have said is that there is not a unified voice against the radicals from the Muslim communities and even Hugo admitted I was right about that.

While they don't "all" do these things, their refusal to come out firmly against these things is a sort of support for it. They don't seperate their lives into segments the way we do, we see our politics, out busines, and out faith as completely seperate things but Muslims believe everything is serving their religion.

I keep pointing out that this is like the Christian dark ages, it took a unified Christian stand to end those bad activities and it will take a unified Muslim stan to end the Islamic terrorist problem. Nothing we do as Infidels will ever change anything in the Muslim world.

Also, it's a Shi-ite belief. They use it to hide from the Sunni prosecution. So it's only a certain facet of the religion that practices it anyway (although some Sunnis do, but the majority say its practice is outwardly denying faith in God).

So no, not all of them practice it. Unless we just listen to you and assume they all lie.

Again, where did I say they all lie? You lie by trying to put that statement into my mouth.

Yes, the original development of "Al-Taqiyah" was as you say, but it has developed into a wider usage, again, go educate yourself a little bit and you will see that things are not always what they seem to be:

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Every stratagem of war Joker.

So why do even good Muslims show support for terrorists, one answer may be in the quran 8:72 where it commands Muslims to show support to any Muslim who is fighting oppression. Even you Joker seem to believe the words of terrorists who claim they are only fighting the only way they know how against American oppression so if a young American like you believes these words, why should a Muslim not believe it?

 

[Times]

Just watched Rauf interviewed on Larry King. He condemned Hamas. He seems like a man who sincerely wants peace.

That's what I've gotten from hearing about him/reading his interviews.

"We tend to forget in the West that the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than AlQaeda has on its hands of innocent non-Muslims."

This was a statement by him claiming that the sanctions against Iraq were killing the people of Iraq, but we all know that Suddam was intentionally keeping the food and medical supplies from his own people so he could generate support in the liberal press, and it worked for awile. The truth that almost all those deaths were caused by their own leader is widely known but this so called "moderate" muslim is spreading lies against America.

Why would someone who wants peace tell intentional lies?

The issue of terrorism is a very complex question

Is it really that complex? Either your killing innocents under false claims of religious need or your not in my book. By squirming around the pojnt and refusing to tell it like it is, you are justifying those terrorist actions.

but after 50 years of, in many cases, oppression, of US support of authoritarian regimes that have violated human rights in the most heinous of ways, how else do people get attention?"

So terrorists are just trying to get attention, they are not bad people for blowing up a school bus filled with children, no, they are doing what anyone else would do.........right?

Again, it is all America's fault......

In all his speaches, Rauf never defends America or point out our good deeds in the Muslim world. Not one word about how America saved Afganistan and how America has helped Muslims in places like Kosovo and Kuwait. All he ever tries to do is make excuses for bad Muslim behavior.

"But what makes people, in my opinion, commit suicide for political reasons have their origins in politics and political objectives and worldly objectives rather than other worldly objectives. But the psychology of human beings and the brittleness of the human condition and how many of us have thought about taking our own lives, we may be jilted, had a bad relationship, you know, didn't get tenure at the university, failed an important course, there's a host of reason why people feel so depressed with themselves that they are willing to contemplate ending their own lives. And if you can access those individuals and deploy them for your own worldly objectives, this is exactly what has happened in much of the Muslim world. "

Right there he downplays the involvement of Islam in the terrorist attackers and suicide bombers, he wants people to believe there is no difference between the suicide of someone who does not get tenure at their teaching possition and a Muslim terrorist who straps a bomb to his chest and goes looking for a big group of innocent infidels to take with him.

"And when we observe terrorism," he said, "whether it was done by the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka or by al Qaida or whoever is behind the bombings in London or those in Madrid, we can see that they were target political objectives.

Again, he offers excuses and justifications to these actions performed by terrorists. The innocents standing around a coffee shop are not a political target, they are victims and the attackers are driven by religious fury to kill the infidel any way they can.

"The differences, perhaps, may lie on whether the solution lies in the two-state solution or in a one-state solution. I believe that you had someone here recently who spoke about having a one land and two people's solution to Israel. And I personally ? my own personal analysis tells me that a one-state solution is a more coherent one than a two-state solution. So if we address the underlying issue, if we figure out a way to create condominiums, to condominiamise Israel and Palestine so you have two peoples co-existing on one state, then we have a different paradigm which will allow us to move forward."

A one-state solution?

Every time you hear the terrorists groups use that phrase what does it mean? The extermination of the jew, at the very least combining all people into one would place the jewish State into eradication, they would be out numbered almost two to one and will lose all their rights and ability to defent themselves. Imagine Hamas obtaining control of the military and the nuclear weapons that Israel possess, does this guy really think giving nuclear weapons to Hamas is a good idea?

Even if the now in power muslims did not exterminate their long time foes, they would be in a possition to really get radical with their new found military might. You think they were violent before when they only had basic weapons, see what they do with this stuff.

You guys really think this guy wants peace?

Seems like they have you both brainwashed very well indeed, lol.

 

[eddo]

if the "wager" is to be accepted, then it should be as it was written TJ, and if so, then you lost- since technically the GZM isn't at "ground zero."

Interpretation doesn't get you very far in the gambling world, lol

"Honestly, I meant to bet on the winning horse, not this one..."

"really, I meant to stay, not hit on 18..."

 

[Times]

if the "wager" is to be accepted, then it should be as it was written TJ, and if so, then you lost- since technically the GZM isn't at "ground zero."

Interpretation doesn't get you very far in the gambling world, lol

"Honestly, I meant to bet on the winning horse, not this one..."

"really, I meant to stay, not hit on 18..."

Seriously eddo, you sometimes surprise me with your need to depart from logic to stand against something I say.

Obiously the wager was as the building was planned to be built, only a completely stupid person would think otherwise.

This area being part of ground zero is based on how you perceive it. Just like Joker saying only people in new york should feel anything about the attack of 9/11. Is that true eddo? Did you feel anything after that attack? And if people all over America were negatively effected by that attack then they too were part of the 9/11 attack.

Is the damage caused by a nuclear bomb limited to the imediate blast radious of the explosion or can we logically say that the attack includes all the following harms that go with that deployment of the nuclear weapon? Considering the devistation caused with the two nuclear bombs we released on Japan, was just the specific detonation locations the only parts of Japan that was damaged?

Your both wrong eddo, ground zero can technically be considered all of America, because damage from that attack covered our entire Nation. But being more specific, the attack caused damage to that building too so it is included in any rational consideration as part of the attack so part of ground zero.

 

[IWS]

if the "wager" is to be accepted, then it should be as it was written TJ, and if so, then you lost- since technically the GZM isn't at "ground zero."

Interpretation doesn't get you very far in the gambling world, lol

"Honestly, I meant to bet on the winning horse, not this one..."

"really, I meant to stay, not hit on 18..."

Picture from September 2001...

Notice the sign on the top left. Sure looks like part of Ground Zero to me.

 

[eddo]

This area being part of ground zero is based on how you perceive it.

Picture from September 2001...

Notice the sign on the top left. Sure looks like part of Ground Zero to me.

To both:

That's my point. Technically "Ground Zero" is where the towers stood. Technically, this mosque thingy isn't being built there.

Wagers and bets need to be clear or someone is gonna get pissed when they have to pay up. lol

 

[jokersarewild]

And part of our freedoms is to stand up for moral possitions Joker. We are supposed to be creating a society to be proud of. We are not robots Joker, we are human being and the things that give us the greatest pleasures in life are directly connected to our enotional side. Even beautiful music can generate an emotional reaction so this is what it really means to be human.

Nothing to do with what I said. Pandering to illicit emotion where there should be none for the cause of your argument. NEXT!

I am very content with being an American, I get upset or irritated when people try to superimpose political correctness over the top of the American dream. You say your content, and it clearly shows in your being willing to believe terrorists are good and trustworthy people and those who hang out with those terrorists are also trustworthy.

Because I totally said that. I said "Believe all of the terrorists, because they bring us candy and flowers". Do you actually READ anything I say, or just form the opinions for me? Tomorrow I'll probably hate homosexuals if we debate WBC and you're in it.

That is where your missing the point. It does not take all Muslims to be involved for this to work, it is already working, your defending them for their refusal to stand united against their terrorist elements. They have you doing part of their "Al-Taqiyah" work for them, now ain't that grand....

No, I just don't subscribe to the G Dubya "You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists" crap. Just because you only see black and white doesn't mean the rest of us do.

And how am I doing part of their work for them? Again, assuming they're all lying, and don't actually hate America. Since, you know, that tends to be the reason cited.

Your the product of a severely progressive school system where America is always the 'bad guy' and we should feel guilty for being strong, feel guilty for our success, feel guilty that even our very poor live 100 times better than the average person in a Muslim governed Nation.

One, I never said America is always the bad guy. Two, America can sometimes be the bad guy. Your national pride interferes with your sense of logic. Three, why should we feel guilty? I've never felt guilty about it, in the slightest. My "school system" never once taught me that. The closest I got was having a hardcore Dem for my 11/12th grade English teacher. Even he never once said anything to that effect.

And where did I ever say they all do "it"?

Well, with your "you're either with us or against us" attitude, it's fairly easy to figure out that if they don't immediately bow down to America and say we're spectacular, they're Satan in disguise.

Your putting words in my mouth, what I have said is that there is not a unified voice against the radicals from the Muslim communities and even Hugo admitted I was right about that.

I never said you weren't.

While they don't "all" do these things, their refusal to come out firmly against these things is a sort of support for it. They don't seperate their lives into segments the way we do, we see our politics, out busines, and out faith as completely seperate things but Muslims believe everything is serving their religion.

"You're either with us, or you're with the Terrorists" - G W Bush

I keep pointing out that this is like the Christian dark ages, it took a unified Christian stand to end those bad activities and it will take a unified Muslim stan to end the Islamic terrorist problem. Nothing we do as Infidels will ever change anything in the Muslim world.

I agree. But you still have countries that not only harbor terrorists, but use terrorism as tool for whatever they want. I can't rightly see a whole lot changing in those areas, except with firepower.

Again, where did I say they all lie? You lie by trying to put that statement into my mouth.

You brought up Taqiyya as if it was something they all did, and never said anything otherwise. You implied they all used it, look back at your statement.

Yes, the original development of "Al-Taqiyah" was as you say, but it has developed into a wider usage, again, go educate yourself a little bit and you will see that things are not always what they seem to be:

"Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Every stratagem of war Joker.

Deuteronomy 17

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

Which is Bible AND Torah, by the way.

So yes, they all have something telling them to kill non-believers. Doesn't mean they do.

So why do even good Muslims show support for terrorists, one answer may be in the quran 8:72 where it commands Muslims to show support to any Muslim who is fighting oppression. Even you Joker seem to believe the words of terrorists who claim they are only fighting the only way they know how against American oppression so if a young American like you believes these words, why should a Muslim not believe it?

Surah [8:72] Surely, those who believed, and emigrated, and strove with their money and their lives in the cause of GOD, as well as those who hosted them and gave them refuge, and supported them, they are allies of one another. As for those who believe, but do not emigrate with you, you do not owe them any support, until they do emigrate. However, if they need your help, as brethren in faith, you shall help them, except against people with whom you have signed a peace treaty. GOD is Seer of everything you do.

Uh...what in the flying frak translation were you you getting?

 

[jokersarewild]

If your going to act like a child I will treat you as one. The wager is easy to understand even by a 5 year old, if your having to resort to this kind of garbage kid, your prove you already lost the arguement.

Yeah...it's garbage because I have to keep telling you that it's not being built on ground zero. You insist I'm wrong, even though there's proof. Huh. Yeah, I'm the kid here.

So either man up and put your money where your mouth is or keep acting like a child.

I bet half a million dollars that a mosque will be built outside of ground zero.

And how is any of that America's fault? Do you think he was anti-us when he accepted out help to fight off the Russians? He fell in love with the power, many leaders of men fall in love with the ability to command death. America could not have known that helping Afganistan fight off the Russians would have created a terrorist like OBL.

You missed my post after it. It turns out, the CIA and Osama had nothing to do with each other. Osama had his own group which eventually became Al-Queda.

We did help train some troops and such as well as provide lots of other help like weapons and such, but you dodged my question, why is it you only want to claim America did bad things but you ignore the greater good that America helped to save millions of lives in Afganistan? Why is it you only spout the propaganda offered by the terrorists as excuses but you refuse to give credit to the good America has done?

I never said we didn't help Afghanistan quite a bit (although we weren't the only ones). But my point was that he had no reason to be grateful to us, and thusly your point had no merit.

Again, stop being a child, that was a very stupid thing to claim, for good or bad he was the only person capable of bringing enough men together to fight as a unified force against the Russians we could help. The alternative was to let millions of Afganistan people die, do you think that was what we should have done?

And again, don't forget that the Russians would not have stopped there.

This was one of the battlefields of the cold war Joker, and one of the reasons we won that war, you have to look at the broader picture before you condemn America.

Uhm...I wasn't condemning America. I was saying he has always been against us. He didn't help US during the war. Whatever he might've done had nothing to do with us. I'm sorry it's childish for offering an opposing view.

You can't possibly be that nieve. If your going to discuss these things at least educate yourself as to why negotiations with terrorists is impossible. First of all, they do not have one governing body, even Hezbollah has a constantly revolving leadership and when one agrees with a thing, someone else does not agree and refuses to honor the deal.

Making peace with one terrorist does nothing to sway another terrorist, in fact many times the other terrorists will intentionally increase their activities to prove those in the deals have no power over them.

We can only have honest negotiations with nations and countries that have a basis in laws, have a binding ability to set policy and a power to enforce those agreements. Nobody this imam is trying to keep the peach with has the power to enforce those agreements. So the refusal to call a terrorist a terrorist is simply counterproductive and it instead allows each of these individual splinters to feel legitimate because guys like this imam will treat them as heads of state instead of the monsters they really are.

Sources? Also, we have alliances with countries supporting terrorism. Like Saudi Arabia. "Oh hey, Saudis, wanna stop supporting terrorism?" "No, we're good. You can't really stop us, as we're rich because of our oil, kthnx."

You dodged the question, try to pay attention this time.

Do you trust the word of people who gladly target children?

Trust them with what? Yes, there are people that target children. I understand this. Morally, I have an issue with it. But murderers can be trustworthy people in matters not of a moral type. Would I want them near my kids? No.

When these terrorists make claims as to "why" they do what they do people like you have to trust they are being honest about their motives and I wonder why you trust them to tell the truth when they have demonstrated they are not trustworthy. There is no honor in a man who will gut a child just for shock value. If they will gut a child, they will lie Joker.

Why would they lie about their motives? Because of Taqiyya, a term that you can't even grasp as to the reason it would be used in the first place? They aren't hiding their beliefs out of fear of persecution, Times.

 

[jokersarewild]

But he refuses to call them terrorists. Actions speak louder than words joker, this imam visits these terrorists ans shows them respect, he treats them as good and respectable people. If he truly believed these terrorists were bad people, he would shun them and refuse to deal with them, and if all the Muslim world would do this the terrorist problem would almost completely end overnight.

These terrorists still want the acceptance of the general Muslim world, and this imam is giving them that acceptance

Negotiating is bad.

How does he show them respect?

By treating them like heads of state instead of treating them like the terrorists they are.

If you met someone you knew killed hundreds of babies, would you shake their hand, have polite conversation, eat dinner and be their friend? Or would you shun them and stay away from them? Would you have the courage to maybe stand up to them and say they were doing wrong? We are talking about mass killers Joker.

You know, it really depends on what I needed from them. I would treat them politely if I needed to get something from them, like money, weapons, etc. Under other circumstances, I doubt I'd go near them.

No, no, that's basically what you were getting at. And Donald Trump doesn't have my land.

What, I have no idea what your trying to say. Either it is unconstutional or it is not for the Government to take away land from a private person. If it is okay to do it for one reason, then it is okay to do it for another. We have a Representative democracy where our elected officials are to represent us, not their own political correct agendas.

Did you vote for Bloomberg in the NY election? If so, they'll take you to jail for fraud. As it turns out, you don't live there, you have no say, you elected nobody in that state.

Well, they are doing nothing illegal. And the community center really isn't that big of a deal.

I never said they were doing anything illegal, a strip club owner is not doing anything illegal either but our Government sometimes does block the construction of a strip club under moral issues all the time. The mosque on ground zero is no big deal "TO YOU" and I support your right as an American to not care about the 9/11 attacks, but you don't speak for all americans and most of us do care about the idea of building a terrorist monument on ground zero.

Except, you know, it's not on Ground Zero. 2 blocks north. And they have no "moral" reason to block the construction anyway.

No, really, your opinion doesn't matter in New York. I'm glad you feel empathy for 9/11. But a building not actually being built on Ground Zero has no impact on your life whatsoever. And that's why your opinion doesn't matter there. Only the locals. Which you aren't.

I say again, it is your right to not be connected in any way to your Country, but it is my right as an American to be very concerned about attacks on this Nation. We were attacked because of the more radical elements of Islam that their own moderates refuse to condemn. People like this imam even hangsout with them and treat terrorists as heads of state. Terrorists do not deserve any respect and showing them respect adds to their belief they are doing good things under their religion.

Yes, building a community center is an attack on the US. Guess the terrorists won.

Building a terrorist monument on ground zero definately would impact my life because it would further degrade America and force it further into the pit of dispair blind political correctness always leads to. This time it is a mosque at ground zero, then what? Where do we draw a line and say "enough is enough"?

Not a terrorist monument. Not on ground zero. Doesn't affect your day-to-day life.

It's not on the site of a Muslim attack on America, so you've won.

Stop being an infant. The entire area is ground zero. In fact, all of New York was severely impacted by the attacks. This was not just an attack on two buildings Joker, this was an attack on Americans as a people. If you choose to brainwash yourself into believing this was just two buildings attacked then there is nothing I can do about that, self-delusion is very comon with the very young and the progressives but you can't force people like me to share in your delusions.

I never said it didn't severely affect NY. But saying "a large area of New York" is Ground Zero because the attacks happened several blocks away is somewhat asinine.

And yes, this was an attack on the American people. Community center != attack on the American people.

No, it has nothing to do with that. As it turns out, your adverse reaction sounds to me like the terrorists won. They got you to hate Islam, which fuels their rhetoric to recruit people to attack us. My acceptance of the religion doesn't fuel their fires. Funny, huh?

The appeasement theory was tried for a long time, and it has failed every time. Clinton was about as soft on Muslims as you could ever find in a past President and the 9/11 attackers were here during his entire Presidency training for 9/11. 9/11 was the result of being soft and showing weakness, like the weakness you show.

Also, there were multiple attempts to bring the WTC down before 9/11. During his presidency, no less. And none of the succeeded.

Everone claimed the more agressive stance of Bush would incite and anger the Muslims to attack us more but it had the exact opposite effect, they backed off and showed America more respect, no new attacks, now with another weak President who is playing the appeasement card with the Muslims we have more terrorist attacks again.

Yeah, Bush was so aggressive that 9/11 happened. Mind you, there are attempts at terrorist attacks that you don't hear much about. So they could've attacked several more times. You don't know.

Any idiot should be able to see appeasement and going soft only invites attacks. The terrorists are going to exist no matter what us infidels do, because they can't possibly hate us more then they already do. The only thing that can stop the terrorists are fellow Muslims standing up against them.

Who's appeasing them?

Yes, I'm putting the freedoms America provides over your hatred of people because of their religion. What a bad person I must be.

No, it has nothing to do with their religion, everything I am against is their actions. Killing babies is not okay just because they hide behind the Islamic faith Joker. You want to give them all a free pass for refusing to fight their own terrorist elements, I am not. The second peopel like this imam starts to shun the terrorists I will be there standing next to them holding their hand sharing in their work.

But it is "THEIR" work to do.

I've said this multiple times. SEPERATE THEIR ACTIONS FROM THEIR RELIGION! The terrorists aren't practicing Islam, they're perverting it.

Also, what proof do you have that he meets with terrorists and treats them like heads of state?